<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 6 January 2017 at 17:26, Barak Korren <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bkorren@redhat.com" target="_blank">bkorren@redhat.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class="">On 6 January 2017 at 07:13, Marc Dequènes (Duck) <<a href="mailto:duck@redhat.com">duck@redhat.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Quack,<br>
><br>
> So I just discovered this thread:<br>
> <a href="http://lists.ovirt.org/pipermail/devel/2017-January/029097.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.ovirt.org/<wbr>pipermail/devel/2017-January/<wbr>029097.html</a><br>
><br>
> First, it would be nice if the infra team was involved directly, because<br>
> not everyone is also an oVirt developer (and on this list). Also there<br>
> are already plans to improve the site system and build and this<br>
> side-initiative feels like an unexpected and rude disruption of energy<br>
> already invested.<br>
<br>
</span>We (as in I) did get involved here:<br>
<a href="http://lists.ovirt.org/pipermail/devel/2017-January/029103.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.ovirt.org/<wbr>pipermail/devel/2017-January/<wbr>029103.html</a><br>
<br>
Its important to understand where people are coming from and what do<br>
they really want and then come up with the proper tools and processes.<br>
<br>
I think I agree with you that the current flow is best suited for<br>
maintaining <a href="http://www.ovirt.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.ovirt.org</a> is a public documentation and marketing<br>
site. What the developers are discussing is a different requirement,<br>
that, IMO is not suited to the main public site.<br>
<br>
The developers have a process where, when creating a new feature, they<br>
first create a feature page on the (so called) "wiki", and then use it<br>
in discussions about the feature.<br>
This is useful for developers, but the end result is a mountain of<br>
half-edited and out of date "feature pages" that provide (IMO) very<br>
poor service to the community.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This comment is not very respectful to those that written very good pages. Lets agree <br></div><div>that the is variance in the quality of pages and there are lots of pages out there that helped<br></div><div>numerous times.<br><br><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
So, in summary, the current flow does not fit what the developers want<br>
(fast, easy, editing of feature design documents), and OTOH the<br>
documents the developers make probably do not belong on the main site<br>
in the form they are made, and had been put there in the past just<br>
because the main site used to be a wiki.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That's simplifying the topic a bit. W <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
So, IMO, we better just let the developers vent off, most of them do<br>
not contribute public consumable documentation anyway, and they will<br>
probably just find another place to put the design documents and all<br>
will be well.<br>
<span class=""><br>
> It seems people forget how things were in the past, which leads to going<br>
> back and forth between a new solution and the previous one. People wish<br>
> for an easy way to contribute, and this is a legitimate goal. After some<br>
> time an easy solution make things complicated because it is such a mess<br>
> and there is no review, so no quality checks, and people wish to have<br>
> workflows. Then they find it to cumbersome and wish to go back to a<br>
> marvelous past. And so on again and again.<br>
<br>
</span>No, you misinterpret their goals, they are not looking to contribute<br>
to the main site, they are looking to discuss and develop new<br>
features. That flow never belonged on the main site, and the sooner<br>
everyone understands that the better.<br>
<span class=""><br></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Wrong again - the thread is on wiki contribution and most of the developers understand the impact of <br>publishing and discussing their work outside the VCS itself. This is not only about feature pages (which <br></div><div>serve as the base for documentation), but yes most of the rant is about making this easier.<br><br></div><div>I and I'm sure others would like to contribute how-to's, blog posts, and feature pages. Now we have few problems<br></div><div>with what we have today:<br></div><div>- wrong maintaners - The maintainers can't be infra as they are not familiar with the source of the information. Spelling and linting can be automated.<br></div><div>- takes time - few maintainers, tons of content<br></div><div>- lack of standards - too much badly written, overdue info etc...<br></div><div>- lack of direct feedback on the content - no comment section, no revision set for pages after some time<br></div><div>- technically a pain, to build the site locally instead of WYSIWYG<br><br></div><div>All of the above makes the contribution barrier high. With that being said, we should probably arrange a cleanup hackaton to <br></div><div>remove, update all the pages.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Mark please share what is the future of ovirt site and what can be done to address the issues above mentioned. <br></div><div><br></div><div><br><br> </div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class="">
> This said, this does not mean the current solution is perfect and we<br>
> should not think about a better one, but we should recall why we<br>
> abandoned a wiki to switch to the current solution, so we don't fall<br>
> into the same traps.<br>
<br>
</span>There is no real conflict here, just a misunderstanding. The current<br>
flow is very good for what OSAS wants to do, which is to maintain a<br>
high-quality public website. Its just not as good for what the<br>
developers want, which is a place to type their half-ideas into. Those<br>
needs do not really collide, the developers just need to go somewhere<br>
else anyway.<br>
<span class=""><br>
<br>
> What I can say on the topic is that migrating is painful, so we should<br>
> be cautious. OSAS is not here to force a solution upon you, but the<br>
> infra team (and the OSAS folks too), have a limited workforce to<br>
> dedicate to this project, so let's make something realistic. Also we<br>
> just finish another pass of cleanup of the current site, with migration<br>
> bugs from the previous Mediawiki solution, so keep in mind it would<br>
> probably take _years_ to really get something clean. Who's gonna do this?<br>
<br>
</span>No one. I don't see this discussion as a cause for migration.<br>
The developers can keep talking, as long as none of then volunteers to<br>
do any real work about this, there is no risk of things changing (As<br>
you say, OSAS and the infra team has enough other work).<br>
<span class=""><br>
> I also wanted to say I totally disagree on someone's remark (somewhere<br>
> in the thread) about doc not being as important as code. A lot of<br>
> content is obsolete or mistaken in the current site already, and this<br>
> means giving a very bad image of the project, raising the number of<br>
> silly questions people come to bother you with on ML or IRC, so I think<br>
> doc should really be taken seriously. As a user it is often I have to<br>
> dig in the code to find undocumented features, or why a documented one<br>
> does not work as said, and that's fu^Wutterly boring.<br>
<br>
</span>This is another discussion altogether, and a worthy one, oyu should<br>
probably reply that directly (on the ML) to the developer who did that<br>
remark, I'm sure most other developers will agree with you.<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
--<br>
Barak Korren<br>
<a href="mailto:bkorren@redhat.com">bkorren@redhat.com</a><br>
RHCE, RHCi, RHV-DevOps Team<br>
<a href="https://ifireball.wordpress.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://ifireball.wordpress.<wbr>com/</a><br>
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