From ydary at redhat.com Wed Apr 1 11:28:19 2015 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3290252830182801409==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Yaniv Dary To: users at ovirt.org Subject: [ovirt-users] [DISCUSSION] oVirt Weekly Sync Goals and Future. Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 18:28:16 +0300 Message-ID: <551C0E90.2010306@redhat.com> --===============3290252830182801409== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030803020106080807060405 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8; format=3Dflowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, In my opinion the current format can be replaced by a etherpad update = that is sent as a newsletter every week. The current format doesn't add = a lot of value to the project work and doesn't create a real sync on the = ongoing topics. No decisions are done today there as well. What do you think should be the goal of the weekly meeting? How can we = improve it? Is a newsletter a good enough update? Thanks! -- = Yaniv Dary Technical Product Manager Red Hat Israel Ltd. 34 Jerusalem Road Building A, 4th floor Ra'anana, Israel 4350109 Tel : +972 (9) 7692306 8272306 Email: ydary(a)redhat.com IRC : ydary --------------030803020106080807060405 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dutf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi,
In my opinion the current format can be replaced by a etherpad update that is sent as a newsletter every week. The current format doesn't add a lot of value to the project work and doesn't create a real sync on the ongoing topics. No decisions are done today there as well.

What do you think should be the goal of the weekly meeting? How can we improve it? Is a newsletter a good enough update?


Thanks!
 
-- =

Yaniv Dary
Technical Product Manager
Red Hat Israel Ltd.
34 Jerusalem Road
Building A, 4th floor
Ra'anana, Israel 4350109

Tel : +972 (9) 7692306
      8272306
Email: ydary(a)redhat.com
IRC : ydary
--------------030803020106080807060405-- --===============3290252830182801409== Content-Type: multipart/alternative MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="attachment.bin" VGhpcyBpcyBhIG11bHRpLXBhcnQgbWVzc2FnZSBpbiBNSU1FIGZvcm1hdC4KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0wMzA4MDMwMjAxMDYwODA4MDcwNjA0MDUKQ29udGVudC1UeXBlOiB0ZXh0L3BsYWluOyBjaGFy c2V0PXV0Zi04OyBmb3JtYXQ9Zmxvd2VkCkNvbnRlbnQtVHJhbnNmZXItRW5jb2Rpbmc6IDdiaXQK CkhpLApJbiBteSBvcGluaW9uIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IGZvcm1hdCBjYW4gYmUgcmVwbGFjZWQgYnkg YSBldGhlcnBhZCB1cGRhdGUgCnRoYXQgaXMgc2VudCBhcyBhIG5ld3NsZXR0ZXIgZXZlcnkgd2Vl ay4gVGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgZm9ybWF0IGRvZXNuJ3QgYWRkIAphIGxvdCBvZiB2YWx1ZSB0byB0aGUg cHJvamVjdCB3b3JrIGFuZCBkb2Vzbid0IGNyZWF0ZSBhIHJlYWwgc3luYyBvbiB0aGUgCm9uZ29p bmcgdG9waWNzLiBObyBkZWNpc2lvbnMgYXJlIGRvbmUgdG9kYXkgdGhlcmUgYXMgd2VsbC4KCldo YXQgZG8geW91IHRoaW5rIHNob3VsZCBiZSB0aGUgZ29hbCBvZiB0aGUgd2Vla2x5IG1lZXRpbmc/ IEhvdyBjYW4gd2UgCmltcHJvdmUgaXQ/IElzIGEgbmV3c2xldHRlciBhIGdvb2QgZW5vdWdoIHVw ZGF0ZT8KCgpUaGFua3MhCgotLSAKWWFuaXYgRGFyeQpUZWNobmljYWwgUHJvZHVjdCBNYW5hZ2Vy ClJlZCBIYXQgSXNyYWVsIEx0ZC4KMzQgSmVydXNhbGVtIFJvYWQKQnVpbGRpbmcgQSwgNHRoIGZs b29yClJhJ2FuYW5hLCBJc3JhZWwgNDM1MDEwOQoKVGVsIDogKzk3MiAoOSkgNzY5MjMwNgogICAg ICAgODI3MjMwNgpFbWFpbDogeWRhcnlAcmVkaGF0LmNvbQpJUkMgOiB5ZGFyeQoKCi0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tMDMwODAzMDIwMTA2MDgwODA3MDYwNDA1CkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZTogdGV4dC9odG1sOyBj aGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04CkNvbnRlbnQtVHJhbnNmZXItRW5jb2Rpbmc6IDdiaXQKCjxodG1sPgogIDxo ZWFkPgoKICAgIDxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9ImNvbnRlbnQtdHlwZSIgY29udGVudD0idGV4dC9o dG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij4KICA8L2hlYWQ+CiAgPGJvZHkgYmdjb2xvcj0iI0ZGRkZGRiIg dGV4dD0iIzAwMDAwMCI+CiAgICA8Zm9udCBmYWNlPSJtb25vc3BhY2UiPkhpLDxicj4KICAgICAg SW4gbXkgb3BpbmlvbiB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBmb3JtYXQgY2FuIGJlIHJlcGxhY2VkIGJ5IGEgZXRo ZXJwYWQKICAgICAgdXBkYXRlIHRoYXQgaXMgc2VudCBhcyBhIG5ld3NsZXR0ZXIgZXZlcnkgd2Vl ay4gVGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgZm9ybWF0CiAgICAgIGRvZXNuJ3QgYWRkIGEgbG90IG9mIHZhbHVlIHRv IHRoZSBwcm9qZWN0IHdvcmsgYW5kIGRvZXNuJ3QgY3JlYXRlCiAgICAgIGEgcmVhbCBzeW5jIG9u IHRoZSBvbmdvaW5nIHRvcGljcy4gTm8gZGVjaXNpb25zIGFyZSBkb25lIHRvZGF5CiAgICAgIHRo ZXJlIGFzIHdlbGwuPGJyPgogICAgICA8YnI+CiAgICAgIFdoYXQgZG8geW91IHRoaW5rIHNob3Vs ZCBiZSB0aGUgZ29hbCBvZiB0aGUgd2Vla2x5IG1lZXRpbmc/IEhvdwogICAgICBjYW4gd2UgaW1w cm92ZSBpdD8gSXMgYSBuZXdzbGV0dGVyIGEgZ29vZCBlbm91Z2ggdXBkYXRlPzxicj4KICAgICAg PGJyPgogICAgICA8YnI+CiAgICAgIFRoYW5rcyE8YnI+CiAgICA8L2ZvbnQ+CiAgICA8cHJlIGNs YXNzPSJtb3otc2lnbmF0dXJlIiBjb2xzPSI3MiI+LS0gCllhbml2IERhcnkKVGVjaG5pY2FsIFBy b2R1Y3QgTWFuYWdlcgpSZWQgSGF0IElzcmFlbCBMdGQuCjM0IEplcnVzYWxlbSBSb2FkCkJ1aWxk aW5nIEEsIDR0aCBmbG9vcgpSYSdhbmFuYSwgSXNyYWVsIDQzNTAxMDkKClRlbCA6ICs5NzIgKDkp IDc2OTIzMDYKICAgICAgODI3MjMwNgpFbWFpbDogPGEgY2xhc3M9Im1vei10eHQtbGluay1hYmJy ZXZpYXRlZCIgaHJlZj0ibWFpbHRvOnlkYXJ5QHJlZGhhdC5jb20iPnlkYXJ5QHJlZGhhdC5jb208 L2E+CklSQyA6IHlkYXJ5PC9wcmU+CiAgPC9ib2R5Pgo8L2h0bWw+CgotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLTAz MDgwMzAyMDEwNjA4MDgwNzA2MDQwNS0tCg== --===============3290252830182801409==-- From sbonazzo at redhat.com Thu Apr 2 02:46:44 2015 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5579611209477632496==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Sandro Bonazzola To: users at ovirt.org Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] [DISCUSSION] oVirt Weekly Sync Goals and Future. Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 08:46:42 +0200 Message-ID: <551CE5D2.8030303@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 551C0E90.2010306@redhat.com --===============5579611209477632496== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Il 01/04/2015 17:28, Yaniv Dary ha scritto: > Hi, > In my opinion the current format can be replaced by a etherpad update tha= t is sent as a newsletter every week. The current format doesn't add a lot = of > value to the project work and doesn't create a real sync on the ongoing t= opics. No decisions are done today there as well. > = > What do you think should be the goal of the weekly meeting? How can we im= prove it? Is a newsletter a good enough update? I think a newsletter can replace the current sync format. > = > = > Thanks! > = > -- = > Yaniv Dary > Technical Product Manager > Red Hat Israel Ltd. > 34 Jerusalem Road > Building A, 4th floor > Ra'anana, Israel 4350109 > = > Tel : +972 (9) 7692306 > 8272306 > Email: ydary(a)redhat.com > IRC : ydary > = > = > = > _______________________________________________ > Users mailing list > Users(a)ovirt.org > http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users > = -- = Sandro Bonazzola Better technology. Faster innovation. Powered by community collaboration. See how it works at redhat.com --===============5579611209477632496==-- From bproffit at redhat.com Wed Apr 8 11:24:57 2015 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5389448513688692494==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Brian Proffitt To: users at ovirt.org Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] [DISCUSSION] oVirt Weekly Sync Goals and Future. Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 11:24:56 -0400 Message-ID: <1689757994.8641852.1428506696058.JavaMail.zimbra@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 551CE5D2.8030303@redhat.com --===============5389448513688692494== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sandro Bonazzola" > To: users(a)ovirt.org > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 2:46:42 AM > Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] [DISCUSSION] oVirt Weekly Sync Goals and Futur= e. > = > Il 01/04/2015 17:28, Yaniv Dary ha scritto: > > Hi, > > In my opinion the current format can be replaced by a etherpad update t= hat > > is sent as a newsletter every week. The current format doesn't add a lot > > of > > value to the project work and doesn't create a real sync on the ongoing > > topics. No decisions are done today there as well. > > = > > What do you think should be the goal of the weekly meeting? How can we > > improve it? Is a newsletter a good enough update? > = > I think a newsletter can replace the current sync format. > = [snip] Etherpad will unfortunately not work, nor any tool that is available to Red= Hat-only community members. Any medium we evaluate has to be publicly avai= lable, or it is of little use to the oVirt community. Mailing lists can work, but we have to get around the problem of "missed" t= hreads. The very fact that this thread went answered by just one person in = the six days it has been live is evidence that threads on high-traffic mail= ing lists can get missed. Or consciously ignored. Encouraging people to att= end a real-time synchronous meeting with a regular cadence can avoid that p= roblem. I am not set on what the format/structure of such a public meeting should b= e, but we need to think about: * What do we want to achieve? * What decisions are we going to make? * What is the role of the attendees? = * Who gets what out of the meeting? = One way to conduct such meetings could be the stakeholder/observer model fr= om agile development meetings, otherwise known as "the chicken and the pig"= model[1]. This would essentially be a variation of what we do know, with s= tatuses given by stakeholders and questions reserved at the end for observe= rs and participants.But people can at anytime ask to be upgraded to stakeho= lder status for that meeting. I think that curating weekly meetings and saying "here are the issues that = will be discussed" and keeping those issues interesting could be a way to g= o. Like "what new features *should* be added to 3.6?" or "how *can* we posi= tion/improve ourselves against X?" = Peace, BKP [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicken_and_the_Pig -- = Brian Proffitt Community Liaison oVirt Open Source and Standards, Red Hat - http://community.redhat.com Phone: +1 574 383 9BKP IRC: bkp @ OFTC --===============5389448513688692494==-- From didi at redhat.com Thu Apr 9 01:41:14 2015 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4680068086980660512==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Yedidyah Bar David To: users at ovirt.org Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] [DISCUSSION] oVirt Weekly Sync Goals and Future. Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 01:41:13 -0400 Message-ID: <1038271249.15841652.1428558073873.JavaMail.zimbra@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 1689757994.8641852.1428506696058.JavaMail.zimbra@redhat.com --===============4680068086980660512== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Proffitt" > To: users(a)ovirt.org > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2015 6:24:56 PM > Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] [DISCUSSION] oVirt Weekly Sync Goals and Futur= e. > = > = > = > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Sandro Bonazzola" > > To: users(a)ovirt.org > > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 2:46:42 AM > > Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] [DISCUSSION] oVirt Weekly Sync Goals and Fut= ure. > > = > > Il 01/04/2015 17:28, Yaniv Dary ha scritto: > > > Hi, > > > In my opinion the current format can be replaced by a etherpad update > > > that > > > is sent as a newsletter every week. The current format doesn't add a = lot > > > of > > > value to the project work and doesn't create a real sync on the ongoi= ng > > > topics. No decisions are done today there as well. > > > = > > > What do you think should be the goal of the weekly meeting? How can we > > > improve it? Is a newsletter a good enough update? > > = > > I think a newsletter can replace the current sync format. > > = > [snip] > = > Etherpad will unfortunately not work, nor any tool that is available to R= ed > Hat-only community members. Any medium we evaluate has to be publicly > available, or it is of little use to the oVirt community. http://lists.ovirt.org/pipermail/users/2014-April/023399.html :-) > = > Mailing lists can work, but we have to get around the problem of "missed" > threads. The very fact that this thread went answered by just one person = in > the six days it has been live is evidence that threads on high-traffic > mailing lists can get missed. Or consciously ignored. Encouraging people = to > attend a real-time synchronous meeting with a regular cadence can avoid t= hat > problem. Projects that get larger often split their mailing lists along the way. The real problem will be to split at the right place - to define the role of each list in a way that will make it very clear to people that want to post, what's the best list to use. This isn't easy at all. OTOH, if we have, say, discussion@, and keep the existing users@ and devel@, and someone posts to users@, and I think it should attract people on discussion@, it's much easi= er to move the discussion there, instead of starting to think who specifically I might want to Cc so that they notice. > = > I am not set on what the format/structure of such a public meeting should= be, > but we need to think about: > = > * What do we want to achieve? > * What decisions are we going to make? > * What is the role of the attendees? > * Who gets what out of the meeting? > = > One way to conduct such meetings could be the stakeholder/observer model = from > agile development meetings, otherwise known as "the chicken and the pig" > model[1]. This would essentially be a variation of what we do know, with > statuses given by stakeholders and questions reserved at the end for > observers and participants.But people can at anytime ask to be upgraded to > stakeholder status for that meeting. > = > I think that curating weekly meetings and saying "here are the issues that > will be discussed" and keeping those issues interesting could be a way to > go. Like "what new features *should* be added to 3.6?" or "how *can* we > position/improve ourselves against X?" > = > Peace, > BKP > = > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicken_and_the_Pig > = > = > -- > Brian Proffitt > = > Community Liaison > oVirt > Open Source and Standards, Red Hat - http://community.redhat.com > Phone: +1 574 383 9BKP > IRC: bkp @ OFTC > _______________________________________________ > Users mailing list > Users(a)ovirt.org > http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users > = -- = Didi --===============4680068086980660512==-- From bproffit at redhat.com Tue Apr 14 07:06:36 2015 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8705503669307201307==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Brian Proffitt To: users at ovirt.org Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] [DISCUSSION] oVirt Weekly Sync Goals and Future. Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 07:06:34 -0400 Message-ID: <566760690.10745455.1429009594168.JavaMail.zimbra@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 1038271249.15841652.1428558073873.JavaMail.zimbra@redhat.com --===============8705503669307201307== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > = > > = > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Sandro Bonazzola" > > > To: users(a)ovirt.org > > > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 2:46:42 AM > > > Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] [DISCUSSION] oVirt Weekly Sync Goals and > > > Future. > > > = > > > Il 01/04/2015 17:28, Yaniv Dary ha scritto: > > > > Hi, > > > > In my opinion the current format can be replaced by a etherpad upda= te > > > > that > > > > is sent as a newsletter every week. The current format doesn't add a > > > > lot > > > > of > > > > value to the project work and doesn't create a real sync on the ong= oing > > > > topics. No decisions are done today there as well. > > > > = > > > > What do you think should be the goal of the weekly meeting? How can= we > > > > improve it? Is a newsletter a good enough update? > > > = > > > I think a newsletter can replace the current sync format. > > > = > > [snip] > > = > > Etherpad will unfortunately not work, nor any tool that is available to= Red > > Hat-only community members. Any medium we evaluate has to be publicly > > available, or it is of little use to the oVirt community. > = > http://lists.ovirt.org/pipermail/users/2014-April/023399.html > = > :-) > = > > = > > Mailing lists can work, but we have to get around the problem of "misse= d" > > threads. The very fact that this thread went answered by just one perso= n in > > the six days it has been live is evidence that threads on high-traffic > > mailing lists can get missed. Or consciously ignored. Encouraging peopl= e to > > attend a real-time synchronous meeting with a regular cadence can avoid > > that > > problem. > = > Projects that get larger often split their mailing lists along the way. > = > The real problem will be to split at the right place - to define the role= of > each list in a way that will make it very clear to people that want to po= st, > what's the best list to use. This isn't easy at all. OTOH, if we have, sa= y, > discussion@, and keep the existing users@ and devel@, and someone posts to > users@, and I think it should attract people on discussion@, it's much ea= sier > to move the discussion there, instead of starting to think who specifical= ly > I might want to Cc so that they notice. > = > > = [snip] > -- > Didi Adding a new mailing list is possible, though I think that the parsing of w= hich kind of discussion goes on what list might ultimately lead to confusio= n. Plus, there is a very real notion that the more "channels" people have t= o watch, the more chance there is that something will get missed. That's pa= rt of why we consolidated the various development-oriented mailing lists in= to [devel] last year in the first place. BKP -- = Brian Proffitt Community Liaison oVirt Open Source and Standards, Red Hat - http://community.redhat.com Phone: +1 574 383 9BKP IRC: bkp @ OFTC --===============8705503669307201307==-- From bproffit at redhat.com Tue Apr 14 07:37:48 2015 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0175722346208479457==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Brian Proffitt To: users at ovirt.org Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] [DISCUSSION] oVirt Weekly Sync Goals and Future. Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 07:37:46 -0400 Message-ID: <910851130.10757580.1429011466899.JavaMail.zimbra@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 1689757994.8641852.1428506696058.JavaMail.zimbra@redhat.com --===============0175722346208479457== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Proffitt" > To: users(a)ovirt.org > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2015 11:24:56 AM > Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] [DISCUSSION] oVirt Weekly Sync Goals and Futur= e. > = > = > = > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Sandro Bonazzola" > > To: users(a)ovirt.org > > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 2:46:42 AM > > Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] [DISCUSSION] oVirt Weekly Sync Goals and Fut= ure. > > = > > Il 01/04/2015 17:28, Yaniv Dary ha scritto: > > > Hi, > > > In my opinion the current format can be replaced by a etherpad update > > > that > > > is sent as a newsletter every week. The current format doesn't add a = lot > > > of > > > value to the project work and doesn't create a real sync on the ongoi= ng > > > topics. No decisions are done today there as well. > > > = > > > What do you think should be the goal of the weekly meeting? How can we > > > improve it? Is a newsletter a good enough update? > > = > > I think a newsletter can replace the current sync format. > > = [snip] I have been thinking about this over the weekend, and I want to get my two = cents in for a possible solution before the meeting tomorrow. Ironically, I= will be unable to attend the weekly sync on April 15 due to a doctor's app= ointment for my daughter... but this in no way reflects that I am not takin= g the weekly meetings seriously. I agree that in their current format, the weekly meetings can best be serve= d by a newsletter format. An Etherpad could work, too, though I am concerne= d that it may fall out of date, since such rolling documents can get stale = and a weekly newsletter would be deadline-oriented and thus less likely to = be missed or ignored by contributors. You will note that I stated "in their current format." I still firmly belie= ve that it is imperative we have some kind of real-time public meeting for = any interested members of the oVirt community. We often lament that there i= s a lack of "outside" contributions into oVirt. Closing the door on one way= for users and developers to reach the rest of the oVirt community is a ste= p away from being open. Mailing lists are not always enough. But if the mee= ting has turned into a weekly status report, then perhaps that is not servi= ng the broader community as well, either. = What I suggest, then, is a series of "office hours," where a rotating set o= f oVirt team members will commit to being on IRC to answer questions and be= generally available. This could be done by one or two people, a few times = a week/once a week, and not even a whole hour. Once a schedule is figured o= ut, it would be posted and people would be openly encouraged to participate= . This would be an open session on IRC... support questions, contributor in= quiries, and just general commentary. It may be quiet sometimes, and someti= mes it could be contentious, but the important thing would be that the comm= unity would know the office hours are there and they can use the time to ad= dress their questions directly to the oVirt team. This would reduce the req= uirement to attend a weekly IRC meeting by many people, but, if spread out = a bit, will actually increase formal presence on the IRC channel. I hope this suggestion is something that can help. I recognize that we all = can use an hour of our lives back from yet-another-meeting, but the importa= nce of real-time availability cannot be understated. Peace, Brian -- = Brian Proffitt Community Liaison oVirt Open Source and Standards, Red Hat - http://community.redhat.com Phone: +1 574 383 9BKP IRC: bkp @ OFTC --===============0175722346208479457==--