[Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs

Einav Cohen ecohen at redhat.com
Wed Nov 27 15:16:23 UTC 2013 

> For the reasons stated in my earlier comment, let's place this column to the
> right of the name.

I am OK with that. 
@Mike/others - any objections for placing the Comment column with an icon-ed 
tooltip-ed title to the right of the Name column?
[are we tracking it in a BZ? is someone volunteering to take care of this?]

> OK.. so we are on the same page and potentially, it can then be incorporated
> into a sort sequence of the name column.

Malini, I missed your earlier reference to sort sequence, I apologize. 
I am not familiar with sort sequence other than Ascending/Descending; 
do you happen to have an example for something that uses sort sequence 
for something other than/in addition to Ascending/Descending? It sounds 
interesting. 

----
Thanks,
Einav

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>
> To: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen at redhat.com>
> Cc: "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:24:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs
> 
> --- Original Message -----
> > From: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen at redhat.com>
> > To: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>
> > Cc: "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>, "Mike Kolesnik"
> > <mkolesni at redhat.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 8:18:38 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs
> > 
> > > That is a good point. I guess the question is if sorting will be
> > > necessary
> > > on
> > > comments since it is available on hover only anyway and I am not sure an
> > > alphabetical sort would be very useful in finding a particular comment
> > 
> > what I had in mind is Boolean sorting (i.e. similar to sorting according to
> > the 'attachment' field in e-mail - sort by existence, and not by content).
> 
> OK.. so we are on the same page and potentially, it can then be incorporated
> into a sort sequence of the name column.
> 
> > 
> > > If the comment is relatively unimportant, then I think it would be
> > > reasonable
> > > to leave it where it is today.
> > 
> > In my view (and I think that Mike implied that on his last reply as well),
> > the comment can be pretty important; the comment is meant for dynamic
> > notifications on the object. So I would imagine a comment to be something
> > like "!! do not shutdown this VM! it is being installed with xyz!!" which
> > is probably important enough to not be "hidden" in a distant column.
> > 
> > [my suggestion earlier to keep it in its current location was merely for
> > doing minimal changes, without changing anything in the primary-columns
> > area or "making things worse" comment-wise, while saving real-estate; but
> > if we can easily do a change that will also make the 'comment' column more
> > noticeable, it is better]
> 
> I am sure many examples abound for good and not so god paradigms. Even though
> I recommend other means of displaying info that apply only to some cases
> instead of dedicating a column for it, to come to a consensus for the short
> term, I think we can all agree to place this column to the right of the name
> column. This way, it is separated from the other two icons but still close
> to the name to gather attention.
> 
> > 
> > > Maybe if we decide not to implement the recommendation I sent earlier, we
> > > could move the comment column to display after the name column. This way
> > > it
> > > is not lost at the very end esp because its presence is known only via a
> > > small icon.
> > 
> > I don't feel strongly one way or another; I think it is acceptable to make
> > this column adjacent to the 'Name' column either on its left or right side
> > (see also Mike's Gmail example from his last reply on this thread - it is
> > really not that bad, in my view, to have another column to the left).
> 
> For the reasons stated in my earlier comment, let's place this column to the
> right of the name.
> 
> Thanks
> Malini
> > 
> > -----
> > Thanks,
> > Einav
> > 
> > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 5:03:44 PM
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen at redhat.com>
> > > > To: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>
> > > > Cc: "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 4:19:55 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs
> > > > 
> > > > Hi Malini,
> > > > 
> > > > > This could work but I am not a big fan of simply adding iconic
> > > > > columns
> > > > > preceding the name. This is actually a good example where 2 icon
> > > > > columns
> > > > > are
> > > > > already there and adding another column is making the primary column
> > > > > (
> > > > > i.e
> > > > > the name column) not seem like the first column the eye focuses on.
> > > > 
> > > > not sure that I completely agree with that: if I am taking my e-mail
> > > > client,
> > > > for example - it has a lot of icon columns that precede the primary
> > > > columns
> > > > ('From', 'Subject'), however I don't think that it makes the primary
> > > > columns
> > > > any less 'catchy' (see attached
> > > > 'e-mail-client--a-lot-of-preceding-icons.png').
> > > > Having said that - it may depend on the actual content of the icon
> > > > columns
> > > > (i.e. in my e-mail example, the icon-columns are mostly empty, whereas
> > > > in
> > > > the
> > > > VMs main tab example, at least the 'status' and 'vm-type' icon columns
> > > > are
> > > > expected to always contain some icon), so not sure.
> > > 
> > > Einav, I do take your point. That said, I don't think the screenshot you
> > > sent
> > > me would be considered a good example of something well designed - at
> > > least
> > > not in terms of the number of columns with icons. Also, it kind of works
> > > because the subject column which is possibly what the user will focus on
> > > is
> > > the widest.
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > I understand that it is not as easy implementation-wise but in the
> > > > > effort
> > > > > to
> > > > > start moving towards a more elegant solution, I am wondering if we
> > > > > can
> > > > > cash
> > > > > in on what users may have learned in spreadsheet software and use a
> > > > > dog
> > > > > ear
> > > > > image at the corner of the name cell ( See attached). This way, we
> > > > > are
> > > > > not
> > > > > dedicating any more space and it does not take away space allotted to
> > > > > the
> > > > > text string either. The visual details of the icon are not final and
> > > > > this
> > > > > is
> > > > > sent to communicate an idea only. If we agree on this, I will send
> > > > > the
> > > > > final
> > > > > icon to use.
> > > > 
> > > > this solution is nice and elegant - I like it;
> > > > my main concern is that I am not sure how will we be able to sort the
> > > > items
> > > > by that field if we won't have a dedicated column for it (once column
> > > > sorting
> > > > will be available in general, of course).
> > > 
> > > That is a good point. I guess the question is if sorting will be
> > > necessary
> > > on
> > > comments since it is available on hover only anyway and I am not sure an
> > > alphabetical sort would be very useful in finding a particular comment.
> > > In
> > > general, once we have that feature, it may be worthwhile to consider what
> > > columns need sorting and not necessarily have every available column in
> > > the
> > > list have that ability. What could be useful in this case is to sort by
> > > all
> > > the rows that do have a comment on them and that could potentially be
> > > incorporated into the sort sequence - for e.g, unsorted, alphanumeric
> > > Asc,alphanumeric desc, presence of comment on top, unsorted.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > my other concern is indeed the implementation effort that would need to
> > > > be
> > > > involved in it.
> > > > 
> > > > Question is if it is something that is worth considering if we decide
> > > > that
> > > > the
> > > > extra-icon-column solution is acceptable.
> > > 
> > > The extra-icon-column solution is not whacky or unacceptable but it
> > > creates
> > > these empty spaces or tiled patterns depending on whether it is filled or
> > > not and it also takes up space all the time.
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Another option (at least for the short term) for solving the
> > > > real-estate
> > > > problem
> > > > without changing anything in the primary column area is to keep the
> > > > 'Comment'
> > > > column in its current location, only replace its textual title with an
> > > > icon
> > > > title
> > > > (see attached 'move-comment-column--option-1-variation.png').
> > > 
> > > I was thinking along these lines as well. Maybe if we decide not to
> > > implement
> > > the recommendation I sent earlier, we could move the comment column to
> > > display after the name column. This way it is not lost at the very end
> > > esp
> > > because its presence is known only via a small icon. If the comment is
> > > relatively unimportant, then I think it would be reasonable to leave it
> > > where it is today.
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thoughts?
> > > > > 
> > > > > -Malini
> > > > > 
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen at redhat.com>
> > > > > To: "Daniel Erez" <derez at redhat.com>
> > > > > Cc: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>, "Mike Kolesnik"
> > > > > <mkolesni at redhat.com>,
> > > > > "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:44:49 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs
> > > > > 
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Daniel Erez" <derez at redhat.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:24:30 AM
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen at redhat.com>
> > > > > > > To: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>, "Mike Kolesnik"
> > > > > > > <mkolesni at redhat.com>
> > > > > > > Cc: "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 6:17:18 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:06:17 AM
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > From: "Eli Mesika" <emesika at redhat.com>
> > > > > > > > > To: "Mike Kolesnik" <mkolesni at redhat.com>
> > > > > > > > > Cc: "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 4:05:37 AM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main
> > > > > > > > > tabs
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > From: "Mike Kolesnik" <mkolesni at redhat.com>
> > > > > > > > > > To: "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:44:34 AM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > When the comment RFE was added (in 3.3), there was also a
> > > > > > > > > > column
> > > > > > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > many main tabs.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > I would like to propose to get rid of the column (which can
> > > > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > > house
> > > > > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > > icon or no icon),
> > > > > > > > > > and instead if there's a comment on an entity just display
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > icon
> > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > tooltip adjacent to the name.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > In this case the icon should probably be scaled down a bit
> > > > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > its
> > > > > > > > > > huge.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > I think this would be a good alternative and save us some
> > > > > > > > > > valued
> > > > > > > > > > screen
> > > > > > > > > > real
> > > > > > > > > > estate.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Thoughts, opinions?
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > +1
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > +1. But isn't there a limitation on appending an icon to a
> > > > > > > > column
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > already has content? Also to fully consider pros and cons - if
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > possible, we have to think of where to append this icon -
> > > > > > > > prefix
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > suffix.
> > > > > > > > If we prefix, then it is likely that some names will be
> > > > > > > > preceded
> > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > 2
> > > > > > > > icons
> > > > > > > > because many of our lists have an icon already in the first
> > > > > > > > column.
> > > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > suffixed, the relative position on the icon will change based
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > long
> > > > > > > > the name is and if the object names tend to be long, then
> > > > > > > > potentially,
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > icon is taking some room away.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > see attached two options (both comparing the current state and a
> > > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > state in the VMs main tab) - not sure which one Mike had in mind.
> > > > > > > option #1 is easy to implement while option #2, as Malini
> > > > > > > mentioned,
> > > > > > > may
> > > > > > > be more difficult to implement.
> > > > > > > also need to keep in mind that the today, the comment column
> > > > > > > real-estate
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > taken mostly by the column title; therefore if we lose the title,
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > indicate in some other manner that this is the comment field of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > object
> > > > > > > (e.g. within the tooltip - also demonstrated in the attached).
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > +1
> > > > > > I think that an image header might be a good solution.
> > > > > > E.g. an image of a post-it note instead of the title.
> > > > > 
> > > > > good idea - we can display a "comment" tool-tip when hovering on the
> > > > > title-icon
> > > > > and, like today, display only the comment value within the tool-tip
> > > > > when
> > > > > hovering
> > > > > on the regular-row-icon (see attached).
> > > > > [we already have icon-column-titles in the application, e.g.
> > > > > "shareable",
> > > > > "bootable"
> > > > > in the Disks grid, so it shouldn't be hard to implement]
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Also worth considering is the fact that if we prefix the icon
> > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > rows where it is needed, it will be in a position that will
> > > > > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > grab
> > > > > > > > attention. So, it may be worthwhile to see if this is the icon
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > should place here or if there is any other icon that deserves
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > attention
> > > > > > > > in a consistent manner across entities.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > While on the topic, it will also be a great idea IMHO to take a
> > > > > > > > look
> > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > various lists and see what columns are actually valuable for a
> > > > > > > > default
> > > > > > > > display. I think we are working on adding the ability to select
> > > > > > > > columns
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > display and so the columns that we remove can be added back in
> > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > users
> > > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > they want but do not sit there taking up room permanently. If
> > > > > > > > anyone
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > ideas on what the default columns should be for one or many of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > lists
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > our product, do send it to me. I will be willing to compile and
> > > > > > > > consolidate
> > > > > > > > the list and then post it back to the group for consideration.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > > > > > 
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> > > > > > > 
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> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
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