[Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs

Malini Rao mrao at redhat.com
Wed Nov 27 10:41:24 EST 2013 

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen at redhat.com>
> To: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>, "Mike Kolesnik" <mkolesni at redhat.com>
> Cc: "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 10:16:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs
> 
> > For the reasons stated in my earlier comment, let's place this column to
> > the
> > right of the name.
> 
> I am OK with that.
> @Mike/others - any objections for placing the Comment column with an icon-ed
> tooltip-ed title to the right of the Name column?
> [are we tracking it in a BZ? is someone volunteering to take care of this?]
> 
> > OK.. so we are on the same page and potentially, it can then be
> > incorporated
> > into a sort sequence of the name column.
> 
> Malini, I missed your earlier reference to sort sequence, I apologize.
> I am not familiar with sort sequence other than Ascending/Descending;
> do you happen to have an example for something that uses sort sequence
> for something other than/in addition to Ascending/Descending? It sounds
> interesting.

Einav, I can't think of a specific example off the top of my head for a list but what I am thinking of is a sort on a secondary attribute. I think it is more common in retail ( Amazon etc.) and travel sort of websites where you can sort a list by price high to low or low to high but also by other attributes like ratings etc. I am kind of extending that here because if the name column included the comment, then the attributes available on that column are the alphanumeric values of the name and well as the availability of a comment and so I feel it is reasonable to have a sort available on all those attributes for that column.


> 
> ----
> Thanks,
> Einav
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>
> > To: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen at redhat.com>
> > Cc: "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:24:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs
> > 
> > --- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen at redhat.com>
> > > To: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>
> > > Cc: "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>, "Mike Kolesnik"
> > > <mkolesni at redhat.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 8:18:38 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs
> > > 
> > > > That is a good point. I guess the question is if sorting will be
> > > > necessary
> > > > on
> > > > comments since it is available on hover only anyway and I am not sure
> > > > an
> > > > alphabetical sort would be very useful in finding a particular comment
> > > 
> > > what I had in mind is Boolean sorting (i.e. similar to sorting according
> > > to
> > > the 'attachment' field in e-mail - sort by existence, and not by
> > > content).
> > 
> > OK.. so we are on the same page and potentially, it can then be
> > incorporated
> > into a sort sequence of the name column.
> > 
> > > 
> > > > If the comment is relatively unimportant, then I think it would be
> > > > reasonable
> > > > to leave it where it is today.
> > > 
> > > In my view (and I think that Mike implied that on his last reply as
> > > well),
> > > the comment can be pretty important; the comment is meant for dynamic
> > > notifications on the object. So I would imagine a comment to be something
> > > like "!! do not shutdown this VM! it is being installed with xyz!!" which
> > > is probably important enough to not be "hidden" in a distant column.
> > > 
> > > [my suggestion earlier to keep it in its current location was merely for
> > > doing minimal changes, without changing anything in the primary-columns
> > > area or "making things worse" comment-wise, while saving real-estate; but
> > > if we can easily do a change that will also make the 'comment' column
> > > more
> > > noticeable, it is better]
> > 
> > I am sure many examples abound for good and not so god paradigms. Even
> > though
> > I recommend other means of displaying info that apply only to some cases
> > instead of dedicating a column for it, to come to a consensus for the short
> > term, I think we can all agree to place this column to the right of the
> > name
> > column. This way, it is separated from the other two icons but still close
> > to the name to gather attention.
> > 
> > > 
> > > > Maybe if we decide not to implement the recommendation I sent earlier,
> > > > we
> > > > could move the comment column to display after the name column. This
> > > > way
> > > > it
> > > > is not lost at the very end esp because its presence is known only via
> > > > a
> > > > small icon.
> > > 
> > > I don't feel strongly one way or another; I think it is acceptable to
> > > make
> > > this column adjacent to the 'Name' column either on its left or right
> > > side
> > > (see also Mike's Gmail example from his last reply on this thread - it is
> > > really not that bad, in my view, to have another column to the left).
> > 
> > For the reasons stated in my earlier comment, let's place this column to
> > the
> > right of the name.
> > 
> > Thanks
> > Malini
> > > 
> > > -----
> > > Thanks,
> > > Einav
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 5:03:44 PM
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen at redhat.com>
> > > > > To: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>
> > > > > Cc: "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 4:19:55 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hi Malini,
> > > > > 
> > > > > > This could work but I am not a big fan of simply adding iconic
> > > > > > columns
> > > > > > preceding the name. This is actually a good example where 2 icon
> > > > > > columns
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > already there and adding another column is making the primary
> > > > > > column
> > > > > > (
> > > > > > i.e
> > > > > > the name column) not seem like the first column the eye focuses on.
> > > > > 
> > > > > not sure that I completely agree with that: if I am taking my e-mail
> > > > > client,
> > > > > for example - it has a lot of icon columns that precede the primary
> > > > > columns
> > > > > ('From', 'Subject'), however I don't think that it makes the primary
> > > > > columns
> > > > > any less 'catchy' (see attached
> > > > > 'e-mail-client--a-lot-of-preceding-icons.png').
> > > > > Having said that - it may depend on the actual content of the icon
> > > > > columns
> > > > > (i.e. in my e-mail example, the icon-columns are mostly empty,
> > > > > whereas
> > > > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > VMs main tab example, at least the 'status' and 'vm-type' icon
> > > > > columns
> > > > > are
> > > > > expected to always contain some icon), so not sure.
> > > > 
> > > > Einav, I do take your point. That said, I don't think the screenshot
> > > > you
> > > > sent
> > > > me would be considered a good example of something well designed - at
> > > > least
> > > > not in terms of the number of columns with icons. Also, it kind of
> > > > works
> > > > because the subject column which is possibly what the user will focus
> > > > on
> > > > is
> > > > the widest.
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > I understand that it is not as easy implementation-wise but in the
> > > > > > effort
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > start moving towards a more elegant solution, I am wondering if we
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > cash
> > > > > > in on what users may have learned in spreadsheet software and use a
> > > > > > dog
> > > > > > ear
> > > > > > image at the corner of the name cell ( See attached). This way, we
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > dedicating any more space and it does not take away space allotted
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > text string either. The visual details of the icon are not final
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > sent to communicate an idea only. If we agree on this, I will send
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > final
> > > > > > icon to use.
> > > > > 
> > > > > this solution is nice and elegant - I like it;
> > > > > my main concern is that I am not sure how will we be able to sort the
> > > > > items
> > > > > by that field if we won't have a dedicated column for it (once column
> > > > > sorting
> > > > > will be available in general, of course).
> > > > 
> > > > That is a good point. I guess the question is if sorting will be
> > > > necessary
> > > > on
> > > > comments since it is available on hover only anyway and I am not sure
> > > > an
> > > > alphabetical sort would be very useful in finding a particular comment.
> > > > In
> > > > general, once we have that feature, it may be worthwhile to consider
> > > > what
> > > > columns need sorting and not necessarily have every available column in
> > > > the
> > > > list have that ability. What could be useful in this case is to sort by
> > > > all
> > > > the rows that do have a comment on them and that could potentially be
> > > > incorporated into the sort sequence - for e.g, unsorted, alphanumeric
> > > > Asc,alphanumeric desc, presence of comment on top, unsorted.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > my other concern is indeed the implementation effort that would need
> > > > > to
> > > > > be
> > > > > involved in it.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Question is if it is something that is worth considering if we decide
> > > > > that
> > > > > the
> > > > > extra-icon-column solution is acceptable.
> > > > 
> > > > The extra-icon-column solution is not whacky or unacceptable but it
> > > > creates
> > > > these empty spaces or tiled patterns depending on whether it is filled
> > > > or
> > > > not and it also takes up space all the time.
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Another option (at least for the short term) for solving the
> > > > > real-estate
> > > > > problem
> > > > > without changing anything in the primary column area is to keep the
> > > > > 'Comment'
> > > > > column in its current location, only replace its textual title with
> > > > > an
> > > > > icon
> > > > > title
> > > > > (see attached 'move-comment-column--option-1-variation.png').
> > > > 
> > > > I was thinking along these lines as well. Maybe if we decide not to
> > > > implement
> > > > the recommendation I sent earlier, we could move the comment column to
> > > > display after the name column. This way it is not lost at the very end
> > > > esp
> > > > because its presence is known only via a small icon. If the comment is
> > > > relatively unimportant, then I think it would be reasonable to leave it
> > > > where it is today.
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Thoughts?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > -Malini
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen at redhat.com>
> > > > > > To: "Daniel Erez" <derez at redhat.com>
> > > > > > Cc: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>, "Mike Kolesnik"
> > > > > > <mkolesni at redhat.com>,
> > > > > > "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:44:49 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Daniel Erez" <derez at redhat.com>
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:24:30 AM
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen at redhat.com>
> > > > > > > > To: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>, "Mike Kolesnik"
> > > > > > > > <mkolesni at redhat.com>
> > > > > > > > Cc: "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 6:17:18 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main tabs
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > From: "Malini Rao" <mrao at redhat.com>
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:06:17 AM
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > From: "Eli Mesika" <emesika at redhat.com>
> > > > > > > > > > To: "Mike Kolesnik" <mkolesni at redhat.com>
> > > > > > > > > > Cc: "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 4:05:37 AM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main
> > > > > > > > > > tabs
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > > From: "Mike Kolesnik" <mkolesni at redhat.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > To: "engine-devel" <engine-devel at ovirt.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:44:34 AM
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Engine-devel] Remove Comment column in main
> > > > > > > > > > > tabs
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > When the comment RFE was added (in 3.3), there was also a
> > > > > > > > > > > column
> > > > > > > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > many main tabs.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > I would like to propose to get rid of the column (which
> > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > > > house
> > > > > > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > > > icon or no icon),
> > > > > > > > > > > and instead if there's a comment on an entity just
> > > > > > > > > > > display
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > icon
> > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > tooltip adjacent to the name.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > In this case the icon should probably be scaled down a
> > > > > > > > > > > bit
> > > > > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > > its
> > > > > > > > > > > huge.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > I think this would be a good alternative and save us some
> > > > > > > > > > > valued
> > > > > > > > > > > screen
> > > > > > > > > > > real
> > > > > > > > > > > estate.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Thoughts, opinions?
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > +1
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > +1. But isn't there a limitation on appending an icon to a
> > > > > > > > > column
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > already has content? Also to fully consider pros and cons -
> > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > possible, we have to think of where to append this icon -
> > > > > > > > > prefix
> > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > suffix.
> > > > > > > > > If we prefix, then it is likely that some names will be
> > > > > > > > > preceded
> > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > 2
> > > > > > > > > icons
> > > > > > > > > because many of our lists have an icon already in the first
> > > > > > > > > column.
> > > > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > suffixed, the relative position on the icon will change based
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > long
> > > > > > > > > the name is and if the object names tend to be long, then
> > > > > > > > > potentially,
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > icon is taking some room away.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > see attached two options (both comparing the current state and
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > > state in the VMs main tab) - not sure which one Mike had in
> > > > > > > > mind.
> > > > > > > > option #1 is easy to implement while option #2, as Malini
> > > > > > > > mentioned,
> > > > > > > > may
> > > > > > > > be more difficult to implement.
> > > > > > > > also need to keep in mind that the today, the comment column
> > > > > > > > real-estate
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > taken mostly by the column title; therefore if we lose the
> > > > > > > > title,
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > indicate in some other manner that this is the comment field of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > object
> > > > > > > > (e.g. within the tooltip - also demonstrated in the attached).
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > +1
> > > > > > > I think that an image header might be a good solution.
> > > > > > > E.g. an image of a post-it note instead of the title.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > good idea - we can display a "comment" tool-tip when hovering on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > title-icon
> > > > > > and, like today, display only the comment value within the tool-tip
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > hovering
> > > > > > on the regular-row-icon (see attached).
> > > > > > [we already have icon-column-titles in the application, e.g.
> > > > > > "shareable",
> > > > > > "bootable"
> > > > > > in the Disks grid, so it shouldn't be hard to implement]
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Also worth considering is the fact that if we prefix the icon
> > > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > rows where it is needed, it will be in a position that will
> > > > > > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > grab
> > > > > > > > > attention. So, it may be worthwhile to see if this is the
> > > > > > > > > icon
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > should place here or if there is any other icon that deserves
> > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > attention
> > > > > > > > > in a consistent manner across entities.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > While on the topic, it will also be a great idea IMHO to take
> > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > look
> > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > various lists and see what columns are actually valuable for
> > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > default
> > > > > > > > > display. I think we are working on adding the ability to
> > > > > > > > > select
> > > > > > > > > columns
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > display and so the columns that we remove can be added back
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > users
> > > > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > they want but do not sit there taking up room permanently. If
> > > > > > > > > anyone
> > > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > ideas on what the default columns should be for one or many
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > lists
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > our product, do send it to me. I will be willing to compile
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > consolidate
> > > > > > > > > the list and then post it back to the group for
> > > > > > > > > consideration.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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