Re: concerns about the viability of hyperkitty

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:13 PM Greg Sheremeta <gshereme(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 1:53 PM Nir Soffer <nsoffer(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: > >> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 4:52 PM Evgheni Dereveanchin < >> ederevea(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: >> >>> The primary function of lists.ovirt.org is to provide mailing lists >>> and display their archives. >>> Hyperkitty is a UI to display archives and it was not intended to act >>> as a forum. >>> >> > Maybe not intended to be that internally, but it was certainly sold as a > forum on memo-list years ago. > > >> It does have issues displaying archives yet there are outstanding issues >>> upstream. >>> Until they are fixed the preferred use case is subscribing and >>> communicating via email. >>> >>> As for integrating with Reddit - we can set up one-way forwarding >>> (reddit->ML) using one of the existing bots >>> to ensure new threads are visible to subscribers yet discussion would >>> still happen on Reddit. >>> >>> From my point of view, mailing lists are a good solution for people >>> with lots of incoming correspondence >>> as everyone can set up their own filters and processing rules. The best >>> use of Reddit is probably as an >>> alternative to the users list where people can exchange experience and >>> fix issues. >>> >>> As I understand, this is the subreddit in question: >>> https://www.reddit.com/r/ovirt/ >>> ~500 subscribers, 5 threads this month. >>> ~1500 subscribers, ~100 threads this month >>> >>> From the first glance it looks like the list is doing fine with many >>> active users. >>> Will it be enough to just notify list subscribers of a new reddit >>> thread? What do you think? >>> >> >> I agree that the mailing list is doing fine, almost too active for me to >> follow :-) >> >> Mailing list is easier to search since everything is indexed by Google >> (or whatever search >> engine you prefer). >> > > That's not working 100%, because the UI is not adding all mail replies to > the threads. > e.g. https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/206 > Also, people are sending an email, then going to hyperkitty to see their > message, not seeing it, and re-sending it (happened twice this week) > But this is an issue with hyperkitty, not with the mailing list :-) Mailing list allow also integration with other mailing lists like >> qemu-block, qemu-discuss, >> libvirt, lvm, gluster, sanlock, and people on these lists. It is >> important that we can get public >> input from from the projects we depend on. >> > > +1, for developers. For users (think admin personas, home lab people), > mail lists are odd and lack social features like votes (likes, upvotes), > reputations, etc. > I don't think home lab is our audience.

We are not very good at small scale, and I don't see any company investing in this direction.

Reddit is nice (I use it a lot) but not a replacement for mailing list. If >> someone want to >> maintain the sub redit, why not. But I don't see us spending time on >> both the mailing >> list and reddit. >> >> What are the real issues we have in the mailing list? >> > > 1. that the mails aren't showing up in the UI > The UI of a mailing is is: - your mail agent - web archive - if hyperkitty is broken, lets use something else. > 2. users have asked for something more user-friendly and feature-rich. > Discourse (offshoot of Stack Overflow) was mentioned specifically. > How many users? Which kind of users?

> 3. IMO, it's hard to have a community feel with a list. We might as well > rename "users" to "help-me" because it's only ever used for support. With a > forum/reddit/discourse/facebook/whatever, we could build more more of a > sense of community. > I'm not sure about that. Do you have examples from similar project supporting this?

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts. > > Greg > > > >> >> Nir >> >> >>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 2:51 PM Sandro Bonazzola <sbonazzo(a)redhat.com&gt; >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Il giorno ven 8 feb 2019 alle ore 16:00 Greg Sheremeta < >>>> gshereme(a)redhat.com&gt; ha scritto: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> After a user on the users list asked about a forum, I pointed them to >>>>> our hyperkitty instance [lists.ovirt.org], which people did not know >>>>> about. Maybe that was a bad idea, because a few who started looking at it >>>>> commented that it was broken. This is not a good community experience. >>>>> [Thank you, Marc, for opening >>>>> https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/206 - but no reply for >>>>> 2 months on a *major* bug like that?] >>>>> >>>>> While investigating the threading issue today, I found a new issue >>>>> (attached screenshot). >>>>> >>>>> Also, one person sent the same message to the list 7 times today >>>>> because he never saw his message show up in the list / UI. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps hyperkitty is not well-tested nor really used by others, in >>>>> which case we should not use it. There are many alternative forums, >>>>> including popular (although admittedly walled off) ones like reddit [ >>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/ovirt] >>>>> >>>>> Please share your thoughts. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Is there a way to integrate reddit wit existing mailing list? >>>> I agree hyperkitty proven itself not being enterprise/production ready >>>> and we need a better platform. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> Greg >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> GREG SHEREMETA >>>>> >>>>> SENIOR SOFTWARE ENGINEER - TEAM LEAD - RHV UX >>>>> >>>>> Red Hat NA >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.redhat.com/> >>>>> >>>>> gshereme(a)redhat.com IRC: gshereme >>>>> <https://red.ht/sig> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> SANDRO BONAZZOLA >>>> >>>> MANAGER, SOFTWARE ENGINEERING, EMEA R&D RHV >>>> >>>> Red Hat EMEA <https://www.redhat.com/> >>>> >>>> sbonazzo(a)redhat.com >>>> <https://red.ht/sig> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> Evgheni Dereveanchin >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Infra mailing list -- infra(a)ovirt.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to infra-leave(a)ovirt.org >>> Privacy Statement: https://www.ovirt.org/site/privacy-policy/ >>> oVirt Code of Conduct: >>> https://www.ovirt.org/community/about/community-guidelines/ >>> List Archives: >>> https://lists.ovirt.org/archives/list/infra@ovirt.org/message/5LCPS6AHZ2K... >>> >> > > -- > > GREG SHEREMETA > > SENIOR SOFTWARE ENGINEER - TEAM LEAD - RHV UX > > Red Hat NA > > <https://www.redhat.com/> > > gshereme(a)redhat.com IRC: gshereme > <https://red.ht/sig> >