Il giorno mar 12 feb 2019 alle ore 21:49 Greg Sheremeta <gshereme(a)redhat.com>
ha scritto:
On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 2:30 PM Nir Soffer <nsoffer(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:13 PM Greg Sheremeta <gshereme(a)redhat.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 1:53 PM Nir Soffer <nsoffer(a)redhat.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 4:52 PM Evgheni Dereveanchin <
>>> ederevea(a)redhat.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The primary function of
lists.ovirt.org is to provide mailing lists
>>>> and display their archives.
>>>> Hyperkitty is a UI to display archives and it was not intended to act
>>>> as a forum.
>>>>
>>>
>> Maybe not intended to be that internally, but it was certainly sold as a
>> forum on memo-list years ago.
>>
>>
>>> It does have issues displaying archives yet there are outstanding
>>>> issues upstream.
>>>> Until they are fixed the preferred use case is subscribing and
>>>> communicating via email.
>>>>
>>>> As for integrating with Reddit - we can set up one-way forwarding
>>>> (reddit->ML) using one of the existing bots
>>>> to ensure new threads are visible to subscribers yet discussion would
>>>> still happen on Reddit.
>>>>
>>>> From my point of view, mailing lists are a good solution for people
>>>> with lots of incoming correspondence
>>>> as everyone can set up their own filters and processing rules. The
>>>> best use of Reddit is probably as an
>>>> alternative to the users list where people can exchange experience and
>>>> fix issues.
>>>>
>>>> As I understand, this is the subreddit in question:
>>>>
https://www.reddit.com/r/ovirt/
>>>> ~500 subscribers, 5 threads this month.
>>>> ~1500 subscribers, ~100 threads this month
>>>>
>>>> From the first glance it looks like the list is doing fine with many
>>>> active users.
>>>> Will it be enough to just notify list subscribers of a new reddit
>>>> thread? What do you think?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that the mailing list is doing fine, almost too active for me
>>> to follow :-)
>>>
>>> Mailing list is easier to search since everything is indexed by Google
>>> (or whatever search
>>> engine you prefer).
>>>
>>
>> That's not working 100%, because the UI is not adding all mail replies
>> to the threads.
>> e.g.
https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/206
>> Also, people are sending an email, then going to hyperkitty to see their
>> message, not seeing it, and re-sending it (happened twice this week)
>>
>
> But this is an issue with hyperkitty, not with the mailing list :-)
>
> Mailing list allow also integration with other mailing lists like
>>> qemu-block, qemu-discuss,
>>> libvirt, lvm, gluster, sanlock, and people on these lists. It is
>>> important that we can get public
>>> input from from the projects we depend on.
>>>
>>
>> +1, for developers. For users (think admin personas, home lab people),
>> mail lists are odd and lack social features like votes (likes, upvotes),
>> reputations, etc.
>>
>
> I don't think home lab is our audience.
>
I'll concede that home lab isn't our primary audience, but admins are, and
some of them asked for a forum just last week.
It's at least one of the possible targets for single node / 3 nodes
hyperconverged deployment.
[slightly off-topic -- I do think home lab is a valid use case to pursue,
because it gets the product in more hands. Look at Ubuntu's dominance of
containers and cloud and you'll see how important this actually is. ]
> We are not very good at small scale, and I don't see any company
> investing in this
> direction.
>
I think we're really good at small scale, but we just don't know it. I can
install SHE via Cockpit and connect it to a cheap FreeNAS via NFS in under
an hour.
> Reddit is nice (I use it a lot) but not a replacement for mailing list.
>>> If someone want to
>>> maintain the sub redit, why not. But I don't see us spending time on
>>> both the mailing
>>> list and reddit.
>>>
>>> What are the real issues we have in the mailing list?
>>>
>>
>> 1. that the mails aren't showing up in the UI
>>
>
> The UI of a mailing is is:
> - your mail agent
> - web archive - if hyperkitty is broken, lets use something else.
>
>
>> 2. users have asked for something more user-friendly and feature-rich.
>> Discourse (offshoot of Stack Overflow) was mentioned specifically.
>>
>
> How many users? Which kind of users?
>
See the thread on users last week. (I'll leave your finding it as a fun
exercise in testing the UI ;) )
[juuuust kidding, it's
https://lists.ovirt.org/archives/list/users@ovirt.org/thread/TUU357HINGWF...
but you can see how messed up hyperkitty is there -- most of the replies
are missing]
>
>
>> 3. IMO, it's hard to have a community feel with a list. We might as well
>> rename "users" to "help-me" because it's only ever used
for support. With a
>> forum/reddit/discourse/facebook/whatever, we could build more more of a
>> sense of community.
>>
>
> I'm not sure about that.
>
> Do you have examples from similar project supporting this?
>
I'm mostly thinking about /r/homelab, but maybe I'm being idealistic. I'm
prone to thinking I live a Star Trek utopia.
I think we are on the same (star)ship
What I don't have many examples of are people talking about their cool
oVirt setups and best practices on users list. We occasionally get "can
someone share a best practice with me?" but again, that's just
"help-me",
not community building.
I would suggest to open a thread on users list about this :-)
Thanks again for your opinions :)
>
> Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts.
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Nir
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 2:51 PM Sandro Bonazzola
<sbonazzo(a)redhat.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Il giorno ven 8 feb 2019 alle ore 16:00 Greg Sheremeta <
>>>>> gshereme(a)redhat.com> ha scritto:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After a user on the users list asked about a forum, I pointed
them
>>>>>> to our hyperkitty instance [
lists.ovirt.org], which people did
not
>>>>>> know about. Maybe that was a bad idea, because a few who started
looking at
>>>>>> it commented that it was broken. This is not a good community
experience.
>>>>>> [Thank you, Marc, for opening
>>>>>>
https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/206 - but no reply
>>>>>> for 2 months on a *major* bug like that?]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While investigating the threading issue today, I found a new
issue
>>>>>> (attached screenshot).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, one person sent the same message to the list 7 times today
>>>>>> because he never saw his message show up in the list / UI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps hyperkitty is not well-tested nor really used by others,
in
>>>>>> which case we should not use it. There are many alternative
forums,
>>>>>> including popular (although admittedly walled off) ones like
reddit [
>>>>>>
https://www.reddit.com/r/ovirt]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please share your thoughts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a way to integrate reddit wit existing mailing list?
>>>>> I agree hyperkitty proven itself not being enterprise/production
>>>>> ready and we need a better platform.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> GREG SHEREMETA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SENIOR SOFTWARE ENGINEER - TEAM LEAD - RHV UX
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Red Hat NA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <
https://www.redhat.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> gshereme(a)redhat.com IRC: gshereme
>>>>>> <
https://red.ht/sig>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> SANDRO BONAZZOLA
>>>>>
>>>>> MANAGER, SOFTWARE ENGINEERING, EMEA R&D RHV
>>>>>
>>>>> Red Hat EMEA <
https://www.redhat.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> sbonazzo(a)redhat.com
>>>>> <
https://red.ht/sig>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Evgheni Dereveanchin
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Infra mailing list -- infra(a)ovirt.org
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to infra-leave(a)ovirt.org
>>>> Privacy Statement:
https://www.ovirt.org/site/privacy-policy/
>>>> oVirt Code of Conduct:
>>>>
https://www.ovirt.org/community/about/community-guidelines/
>>>> List Archives:
>>>>
https://lists.ovirt.org/archives/list/infra@ovirt.org/message/5LCPS6AHZ2K...
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> GREG SHEREMETA
>>
>> SENIOR SOFTWARE ENGINEER - TEAM LEAD - RHV UX
>>
>> Red Hat NA
>>
>> <
https://www.redhat.com/>
>>
>> gshereme(a)redhat.com IRC: gshereme
>> <
https://red.ht/sig>
>>
>
--
GREG SHEREMETA
SENIOR SOFTWARE ENGINEER - TEAM LEAD - RHV UX
Red Hat NA
<
https://www.redhat.com/>
gshereme(a)redhat.com IRC: gshereme
<
https://red.ht/sig>
--
SANDRO BONAZZOLA
MANAGER, SOFTWARE ENGINEERING, EMEA R&D RHV
Red Hat EMEA <
https://www.redhat.com/>
sbonazzo(a)redhat.com
<
https://red.ht/sig>