Setting up oVirt for the first time
--Apple-Mail=_0375DE21-EDF5-4C87-B0F3-BC852CDA9E3B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All, I've done a lot of reading and lots of comparison of different = hypervisors and tools and have decided that oVirt would be the best = option. My initial use case is a not too new server that I will setup to = run multiple development environments for the devs here, but I wanted = something that will scale out to production as the vm infrastructure, = hardware, etc. grows here. I'll soon have a second server to run my vm's on and want to setup a = self-hosted engine. I'm trying to find the most recent version of a = how-to on the same. I found a presentation showing off how much easier = it is to do this in oVirt 3.6 but can't find the correct docs. I seem to = always end up with 3.5 or older versions. Can someone point me at a = how-to of how to best achieve this.=20 Also, while I have you all here... :-) Is it possible to setup the hypervisor hosts themselves as NFS servers = to create Storage (I realize that this will play havoc with the HA). We = do have an NFS server that we will be upgrading to add storage and = faster drives, but I was thinking that I may be able to use the internal = storage of the hypervisors themselves as a short term stopgap and then = migrate vm's to the upgraded NFS server later. Will that even work, or = will it break somehow? Any advice for a new install would be welcome. Thank you=20 Cheers, Gervais --Apple-Mail=_0375DE21-EDF5-4C87-B0F3-BC852CDA9E3B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html = charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" = class=3D"">Hi All,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">I've done a lot of reading and lots of comparison of = different hypervisors and tools and have decided that oVirt would be the = best option. My initial use case is a not too new server that I will = setup to run multiple development environments for the devs here, but I = wanted something that will scale out to production as the vm = infrastructure, hardware, etc. grows here.</div><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'll soon have a second server to run = my vm's on and want to setup a self-hosted engine. I'm trying to find = the most recent version of a how-to on the same. I found a presentation = showing off how much easier it is to do this in oVirt 3.6 but can't find = the correct docs. I seem to always end up with 3.5 or older versions. = Can someone point me at a how-to of how to best achieve = this. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">Also, while I have you all here... :-)</div><div class=3D"">Is = it possible to setup the hypervisor hosts themselves as NFS servers to = create Storage (I realize that this will play havoc with the HA). We do = have an NFS server that we will be upgrading to add storage and faster = drives, but I was thinking that I may be able to use the internal = storage of the hypervisors themselves as a short term stopgap and then = migrate vm's to the upgraded NFS server later. Will that even work, or = will it break somehow?<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br = class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=3D"">Any advice for = a new install would be welcome.</div><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thank you </div><div class=3D""> <div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: = normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; = text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; = word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = after-white-space;" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; = text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: = 0px;"><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">Cheers,<br = class=3D"">Gervais</span></div> </div> <br class=3D""></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_0375DE21-EDF5-4C87-B0F3-BC852CDA9E3B--
On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 10:59 PM, Gervais de Montbrun <gervais@demontbrun.com
wrote:
Hi All,
I've done a lot of reading and lots of comparison of different hypervisors and tools and have decided that oVirt would be the best option. My initial use case is a not too new server that I will setup to run multiple development environments for the devs here, but I wanted something that will scale out to production as the vm infrastructure, hardware, etc. grows here.
I'll soon have a second server to run my vm's on and want to setup a self-hosted engine. I'm trying to find the most recent version of a how-to on the same. I found a presentation showing off how much easier it is to do this in oVirt 3.6 but can't find the correct docs. I seem to always end up with 3.5 or older versions. Can someone point me at a how-to of how to best achieve this.
http://www.ovirt.org/Features/HEApplianceFlow
Also, while I have you all here... :-) Is it possible to setup the hypervisor hosts themselves as NFS servers to create Storage (I realize that this will play havoc with the HA). We do have an NFS server that we will be upgrading to add storage and faster drives, but I was thinking that I may be able to use the internal storage of the hypervisors themselves as a short term stopgap and then migrate vm's to the upgraded NFS server later. Will that even work, or will it break somehow?
What you are asking for is generally called hyper-convergence. We tried to have it for 3.6 with glusterfs on each node but it wasn't valuated stable enough to be released. We are still working on that for the next release.
Any advice for a new install would be welcome.
Thank you
Cheers, Gervais
_______________________________________________ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:47 PM, Simone Tiraboschi <stirabos@redhat.com> = wrote: =20 =20 =20 On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 10:59 PM, Gervais de Montbrun = <gervais@demontbrun.com <mailto:gervais@demontbrun.com>> wrote: Hi All, =20 I've done a lot of reading and lots of comparison of different = hypervisors and tools and have decided that oVirt would be the best =
=20 I'll soon have a second server to run my vm's on and want to setup a = self-hosted engine. I'm trying to find the most recent version of a = how-to on the same. I found a presentation showing off how much easier = it is to do this in oVirt 3.6 but can't find the correct docs. I seem to = always end up with 3.5 or older versions. Can someone point me at a = how-to of how to best achieve this. =20 http://www.ovirt.org/Features/HEApplianceFlow = <http://www.ovirt.org/Features/HEApplianceFlow> =20 =20 Also, while I have you all here... :-) Is it possible to setup the hypervisor hosts themselves as NFS servers = to create Storage (I realize that this will play havoc with the HA). We = do have an NFS server that we will be upgrading to add storage and = faster drives, but I was thinking that I may be able to use the internal = storage of the hypervisors themselves as a short term stopgap and then = migrate vm's to the upgraded NFS server later. Will that even work, or = will it break somehow? =20 What you are asking for is generally called hyper-convergence. We =
--Apple-Mail=_1E8C93F2-E6A2-4E71-AF6F-60C2D12F4FA0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Simone, Thanks so much for the quick reply with the link. Much obliged. How far off is hyper-convergence? If it is close, I could possibly wait. Cheers, Gervais option. My initial use case is a not too new server that I will setup to = run multiple development environments for the devs here, but I wanted = something that will scale out to production as the vm infrastructure, = hardware, etc. grows here. tried to have it for 3.6 with glusterfs on each node but it wasn't = valuated stable enough to be released. We are still working on that for = the next release.
=20 Any advice for a new install would be welcome. =20 Thank you=20 =20 Cheers, Gervais =20 =20 _______________________________________________ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org <mailto:Users@ovirt.org> http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users = <http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users> =20 =20
--Apple-Mail=_1E8C93F2-E6A2-4E71-AF6F-60C2D12F4FA0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html = charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" = class=3D"">Simone,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">Thanks so much for the quick reply with the link. Much = obliged.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">How = far off is hyper-convergence? If it is close, I could possibly = wait.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""> <div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: = normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; = text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; = word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = after-white-space;" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; = text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: = 0px;"><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">Cheers,<br = class=3D"">Gervais</span></div> </div> <br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div = class=3D"">On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:47 PM, Simone Tiraboschi <<a = href=3D"mailto:stirabos@redhat.com" class=3D"">stirabos@redhat.com</a>>= wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div = dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br = class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 10:59 PM, = Gervais de Montbrun <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a = href=3D"mailto:gervais@demontbrun.com" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">gervais@demontbrun.com</a>></span> wrote:<br = class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left= -style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" = class=3D"">Hi All,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">I've done a lot of reading and lots of comparison of = different hypervisors and tools and have decided that oVirt would be the = best option. My initial use case is a not too new server that I will = setup to run multiple development environments for the devs here, but I = wanted something that will scale out to production as the vm = infrastructure, hardware, etc. grows here.</div><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'll soon have a second server to run = my vm's on and want to setup a self-hosted engine. I'm trying to find = the most recent version of a how-to on the same. I found a presentation = showing off how much easier it is to do this in oVirt 3.6 but can't find = the correct docs. I seem to always end up with 3.5 or older versions. = Can someone point me at a how-to of how to best achieve this. = </div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.ovirt.org/Features/HEApplianceFlow" = class=3D"">http://www.ovirt.org/Features/HEApplianceFlow</a><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D""> </div><div = class=3D""> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left= -style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" = class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Also, while I have you = all here... :-)</div><div class=3D"">Is it possible to setup the = hypervisor hosts themselves as NFS servers to create Storage (I realize = that this will play havoc with the HA). We do have an NFS server that we = will be upgrading to add storage and faster drives, but I was thinking = that I may be able to use the internal storage of the hypervisors = themselves as a short term stopgap and then migrate vm's to the upgraded = NFS server later. Will that even work, or will it break = somehow?</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div= class=3D"">What you are asking for is generally called = hyper-convergence. We tried to have it for 3.6 with glusterfs on each = node but it wasn't valuated stable enough to be released. We are = still working on that for the next release.</div><div class=3D""> <br= class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px = 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left= -style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" = class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Any advice for a new install = would be welcome.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">Thank you </div><div class=3D""> <div style=3D"font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: = normal; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: = none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" = class=3D""><span style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-variant: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: = -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px;" class=3D""><br = class=3D"">Cheers,<br class=3D"">Gervais</span></div> </div> <br class=3D""></div></div><br = class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br class=3D""> Users mailing list<br class=3D""> <a href=3D"mailto:Users@ovirt.org" class=3D"">Users@ovirt.org</a><br = class=3D""> <a href=3D"http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users" = rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users</a><br = class=3D""> <br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div> </div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_1E8C93F2-E6A2-4E71-AF6F-60C2D12F4FA0--
On 01/12/2015 2:47 PM, Simone Tiraboschi wrote:
What you are asking for is generally called hyper-convergence. We tried to have it for 3.6 with glusterfs on each node but it wasn't valuated stable enough to be released. We are still working on that for the next release.
In such a setup (GlusterFS running on 3+ nodes, sharing their storage), is this also basically what VMware's "vSAN" is? It seems very similar, at least. Regards, Alan
On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 8:16 AM, Alan Murrell <lists@murrell.ca> wrote:
On 01/12/2015 2:47 PM, Simone Tiraboschi wrote:
What you are asking for is generally called hyper-convergence. We tried
to have it for 3.6 with glusterfs on each node but it wasn't valuated stable enough to be released. We are still working on that for the next release.
In such a setup (GlusterFS running on 3+ nodes, sharing their storage), is this also basically what VMware's "vSAN" is? It seems very similar, at least.
Yes, the general architecture would be not that different.
Regards,
Alan
_______________________________________________ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
On Tuesday, December 01, 2015 05:59:59 PM Gervais de Montbrun wrote:
Hi All,
I've done a lot of reading and lots of comparison of different hypervisors and tools and have decided that oVirt would be the best option. My initial use case is a not too new server that I will setup to run multiple development environments for the devs here, but I wanted something that will scale out to production as the vm infrastructure, hardware, etc. grows here.
I'll soon have a second server to run my vm's on and want to setup a self-hosted engine. I'm trying to find the most recent version of a how-to on the same. I found a presentation showing off how much easier it is to do this in oVirt 3.6 but can't find the correct docs. I seem to always end up with 3.5 or older versions. Can someone point me at a how-to of how to best achieve this.
Also, while I have you all here... :-) Is it possible to setup the hypervisor hosts themselves as NFS servers to create Storage (I realize that this will play havoc with the HA). We do have an NFS server that we will be upgrading to add storage and faster drives, but I was thinking that I may be able to use the internal storage of the hypervisors themselves as a short term stopgap and then migrate vm's to the upgraded NFS server later. Will that even work, or will it break somehow?
I saw Simone gave you an answer about Gluster. Here is my DEVELOPMENT setup, which has been running for several years like this now. I have some VMs with uptime in the 100+ days. I am NOT doing the hosted engine since I develop stuff for the engine and it makes no sense for me to have the hosted engine. Here is my setup, which is one option, I will outline some other options which might be more appropriate for what you are trying to do to: * Development engine machine. this runs just the engine. * 2x hosts, which both expose NFS shares for a data domain. * Each host can see the NFS share of the other host. * In my engine I have 2 data domains on one data center. One is the master domain the other a secondary data domain. Pros of this setup: * I can use the storage on both my hosts for VMs. * I can live migrate VMs between hosts. * I can storage migrate VMs between data domains. * Its cheap and easy to setup Cons of this setup: * If any host goes down, the entire data center goes down since both hosts need to see all the storage. (Well technically only the VMs that are on the storage domain that went down will die and all the VMs on the host that went down). So this gives many points of failure for the entire thing to come crashing down. This is fine for me since its my development environment and nothing critical runs on it. * Its not always clear on which data domain you will want to create a VM but again for me its not much of an issue as this is a development environment. Here are some other possible setups, which I am not sure will work with hosted engine as I believe that requires some kind of shared storage. IIRC it will need some kind of shared storage, but it will be separate from the normal data domain. So lets assume you have hosted engine up and running and are looking at ways of using the storage on the host. Option 1: Create a local storage data center and add your hosts to that data center. Pros of this setup: * VMs are on local storage so should have decent IO. * If one host goes down it will not affect any of the other hosts. * Its cheap and easy to setup. Cons of this setup: * No live migration * No storage migration * Hard to migrate to a different storage solution later. Option 2: This is sort of a hybrid between my setup and option 1. Create several shared storage data centers, one for each host. Setup your NFS on each host. Add one host to each data center and use the NFS share as the data domain. Pros of this setup: * VMs are pretty much on local storage, there is some overhead of the NFS share, but it still basically local. * If one host goes down it will not affect any of the other hosts. Cons of this setup: * No live migration * No storage migration * Hard to migrate to different storage solution later*. Given your situation with getting some fast NFS storage at a later point, what you can do if you take option2. Once you get the new storage, you can easily add an import/export domain and export all your VMs to that storage. One you have all your VMs on the import/export domain, create a new data center, add your hosts, add your shiny new NFS as a data domain, also add the same import/export domain, and import all the VMs into the new data domain. Note this might also work for option 1 assuming you can attach import/export domain to a local storage data center (I have never tried so I don't know). In 3.5+ I think you can also simply add a new data center, add your hosts, and import the data domains from the other data centers (after you disconnected them from there), then storage migrate the VMs. Its more or less the same as above just a slightly different mechanism. Given all of this yes its possible, but not recommended for anything but messing around with it. The recommended solution is to use shared storage separate from your hosts. This gives you live migration and if one host goes down it will not affect your other hosts. Of course if your storage goes down, you are screwed regardless, but you can use whatever redundancy mechanism you have available on the storage to mitigate that. Alexander
Any advice for a new install would be welcome.
Thank you
Cheers, Gervais
On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 11:59 PM, Gervais de Montbrun <gervais@demontbrun.com> wrote:
Hi All,
I've done a lot of reading and lots of comparison of different hypervisors and tools and have decided that oVirt would be the best option. My initial use case is a not too new server that I will setup to run multiple development environments for the devs here, but I wanted something that will scale out to production as the vm infrastructure, hardware, etc. grows here.
I'll soon have a second server to run my vm's on and want to setup a self-hosted engine. I'm trying to find the most recent version of a how-to on the same. I found a presentation showing off how much easier it is to do this in oVirt 3.6 but can't find the correct docs. I seem to always end up with 3.5 or older versions. Can someone point me at a how-to of how to best achieve this.
Also, while I have you all here... :-) Is it possible to setup the hypervisor hosts themselves as NFS servers to create Storage (I realize that this will play havoc with the HA). We do have an NFS server that we will be upgrading to add storage and faster drives, but I was thinking that I may be able to use the internal storage of the hypervisors themselves as a short term stopgap and then migrate vm's to the upgraded NFS server later. Will that even work, or will it break somehow?
It is maybe not optimal, but it should work. Not sure if anyone is working with such setting, so you may have unique issues that nobody solved yet. Separating storage from the hypervisor will give you better performance and reliability, and a more standard configuration that will be easier to manage and support. You can move the storage later to another server and export the vms. Nir
Is it possible to setup the hypervisor hosts themselves as NFS servers to create Storage (I realize that this will play havoc with the HA). We do have an NFS server that we will be upgrading to add storage and faster drives, but I was thinking that I may be able to use the internal storage of the hypervisors themselves as a short term stopgap and then migrate vm's to the upgraded NFS server later. Will that even work, or will it break somehow? As Nir pointed out its possible. I'm using such a setup at home where a NAS provides NFS storage for hosted-engine and also iso/export/data domains for VMs. Besides that I have an NFS server on my host for VMs which need a bit of disk
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050902070100090107070201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1-12-2015 22:59, Gervais de Montbrun wrote: throughput, its got a nice SSD in it. Moving VM disks from the SSD storage domain to the 'slow' storage domain on the NAS and vice versa works fine. Problem with these kind of setups is redundancy which is ofcourse non-existant :-) Regards, Joop --------------050902070100090107070201 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1-12-2015 22:59, Gervais de Montbrun wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote cite="mid:4BCDDB0B-6C13-487B-9AE9-557BA1F42348@demontbrun.com" type="cite"> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"> <div class="">Is it possible to setup the hypervisor hosts themselves as NFS servers to create Storage (I realize that this will play havoc with the HA). We do have an NFS server that we will be upgrading to add storage and faster drives, but I was thinking that I may be able to use the internal storage of the hypervisors themselves as a short term stopgap and then migrate vm's to the upgraded NFS server later. Will that even work, or will it break somehow?<br> </div> </blockquote> As Nir pointed out its possible.<br> I'm using such a setup at home where a NAS provides NFS storage for hosted-engine and also iso/export/data domains for VMs. Besides that I have an NFS server on my host for VMs which need a bit of disk throughput, its got a nice SSD in it. Moving VM disks from the SSD storage domain to the 'slow' storage domain on the NAS and vice versa works fine.<br> Problem with these kind of setups is redundancy which is ofcourse non-existant :-)<br> <br> Regards,<br> <br> Joop<br> <br> </body> </html> --------------050902070100090107070201--
On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Joop <jvdwege@xs4all.nl> wrote:
On 1-12-2015 22:59, Gervais de Montbrun wrote:
Is it possible to setup the hypervisor hosts themselves as NFS servers to create Storage (I realize that this will play havoc with the HA). We do have an NFS server that we will be upgrading to add storage and faster drives, but I was thinking that I may be able to use the internal storage of the hypervisors themselves as a short term stopgap and then migrate vm's to the upgraded NFS server later. Will that even work, or will it break somehow?
As Nir pointed out its possible. I'm using such a setup at home where a NAS provides NFS storage for hosted-engine and also iso/export/data domains for VMs. Besides that I have an NFS server on my host for VMs which need a bit of disk throughput, its got a nice SSD in it. Moving VM disks from the SSD storage domain to the 'slow' storage domain on the NAS and vice versa works fine. Problem with these kind of setups is redundancy which is ofcourse non-existant :-)
Take care that up to and including RHEL 7 mounting exports provided by the localhost NFS-server can lead to deadlocks so it's not a recommended choice. A loopback iSCSI target should be more reliable on this side. http://linux-iscsi.org/wiki/Loopback
Regards,
Joop
_______________________________________________ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
participants (6)
-
Alan Murrell -
Alexander Wels -
Gervais de Montbrun -
Joop -
Nir Soffer -
Simone Tiraboschi