11:11 a.m.
Hello all.
I have a peculiar problem here which perhaps others may have had or know
about and can advise.
I have Virtual Machine with 2 VirtIO NICs. This VM serves around 1Gbps of
traffic with thousands of clients connecting to it. When I do a packet loss
test to the IP pinned to NIC1 it varies from 3% to 10% of packet loss. When
I run the same test on NIC2 the packet loss is consistently 0%.
From what I gather I may have something to do with possible lack of
Multi
Queu VirtIO where NIC1 is managed by a single CPU which might be hitting
100% and causing this packet loss.
Looking at this reference (
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MQ_virtio_net) I see one way to
test it is start the VM with 4 queues (for example), but checking on the
qemu-kvm process I don't see option present. Any way I can force it from
the Engine ?
This other reference (
https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature) points to the
same direction about starting the VM with queues=N
Also trying to increase the TX ring buffer within the guest with ethtool -g
eth0 is not possible.
Oh, by the way, the Load on the VM is significantly high despite the CPU
usage isn't above 50% - 60% in average.
Thanks
Fernando
12:53 p.m.
On 03/17/2017 11:11 AM, FERNANDO FREDIANI wrote:
Hello all.
I have a peculiar problem here which perhaps others may have had or
know about and can advise.
I have Virtual Machine with 2 VirtIO NICs. This VM serves around 1Gbps
of traffic with thousands of clients connecting to it. When I do a
packet loss test to the IP pinned to NIC1 it varies from 3% to 10% of
packet loss. When I run the same test on NIC2 the packet loss is
consistently 0%.
From what I gather I may have something to do with possible lack of
Multi Queu VirtIO where NIC1 is managed by a single CPU which might be
hitting 100% and causing this packet loss.
Looking at this reference
(https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MQ_virtio_net) I see one way
to test it is start the VM with 4 queues (for example), but checking
on the qemu-kvm process I don't see option present. Any way I can
force it from the Engine ?
This other reference
(https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature) points
to the same direction about starting the VM with queues=N
Also trying to increase the TX ring buffer within the guest with
ethtool -g eth0 is not possible.
Oh, by the way, the Load on the VM is significantly high despite the
CPU usage isn't above 50% - 60% in average.
Thanks
Fernando
Check for NIC errors on the host. There have been numerous issues with
Windows VMs
not being able to handle certain features of better NICs on the host.
By turning those features off on the host, the VM may be able to cope again.
here is a snippet from a support case we had here:
"
There have been no occurrences of the ixgbe driver issue in the logs
since the fix went in at roughly: Jan 3 22:50:11 2016 until now: Tue
Jan 5 15:28:02 2016
Only large-receive-offload was turned off with:
# ethtool -K eth0 lro off
# ethtool -K eth1 lro off
"
By making that change on all of the hosts, the Windows VMs all recovered.
This is likely not your exact issue, but its included here to show that
some OSes on VMs can have issues with the host NIC that the VM does not
support.
The issue may even be seen in the error logs on the host, as these were.
4:47 p.m.
Hello Phil.
Thanks for the tips.
I have checked the hosts and all four 1 Gb NICs use tg3 driver and are
"Broadcom
Gigabit Ethernet BCM5720" so they should all behaviour the same.
As I use 3 bonded interfaces on each Host where the VM connects to, I have
downed each of the 3 one at a time to see if any of them could be adding
this packet loss but that changed nothing about.
Interesting is: I have another server with exactly same hardware which is
not an Hypervisor, runs CentOS 6 with newer kernel 4.5.0-1 and has not
packet loss at all even with high traffic. While the oVirt Node runs CentOS
7.3 (oVirt-Node-NG 4.1) but with kernel 3.10.0-514.6.1.
Could it possibility be anything related to the kernel version and should I
try to upgrade the oVirt-Node kernel or rather install a Minimal CentOS 7,
use the newer kernel on it and use it as a Hypervisor instead of
oVirt-Node-NG?
From what I could gather searching all day about this issue it make
sense
it be something related to NIC buffers or multiqueue , but not sure yet
what is the best way to address it: if when starting up the Virtual Machine
add the queue=N option, if changing anything on the NIC driver config on
the Host or even trying to use a different driver/kernel version.
Please note something I mentioned in the previous message: If I run the
packet loss test against each of the 2 VirtIO NIC on the same VM, the busy
one (NIC1) has packet loss and the one without much traffic (NIC2) doesn't.
All the traffic going up to all VMs on the Host pass through the same bond
interface, so if it was something related to the physical NICs it would
show packet loss to the second vNIC as well. Or do I miss anything here ?
Thanks
Fernando
2017-03-17 14:53 GMT-03:00 Phil Meyer <phil(a)unixlords.com>:
On 03/17/2017 11:11 AM, FERNANDO FREDIANI wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I have a peculiar problem here which perhaps others may have had or
> know about and can advise.
>
> I have Virtual Machine with 2 VirtIO NICs. This VM serves around 1Gbps
> of traffic with thousands of clients connecting to it. When I do a
> packet loss test to the IP pinned to NIC1 it varies from 3% to 10% of
> packet loss. When I run the same test on NIC2 the packet loss is
> consistently 0%.
>
> From what I gather I may have something to do with possible lack of
> Multi Queu VirtIO where NIC1 is managed by a single CPU which might be
> hitting 100% and causing this packet loss.
>
> Looking at this reference
> (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MQ_virtio_net) I see one way
> to test it is start the VM with 4 queues (for example), but checking
> on the qemu-kvm process I don't see option present. Any way I can
> force it from the Engine ?
>
> This other reference
> (https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature) points
> to the same direction about starting the VM with queues=N
>
> Also trying to increase the TX ring buffer within the guest with
> ethtool -g eth0 is not possible.
>
> Oh, by the way, the Load on the VM is significantly high despite the
> CPU usage isn't above 50% - 60% in average.
>
> Thanks
> Fernando
Check for NIC errors on the host. There have been numerous issues with
Windows VMs
not being able to handle certain features of better NICs on the host.
By turning those features off on the host, the VM may be able to cope
again.
here is a snippet from a support case we had here:
"
There have been no occurrences of the ixgbe driver issue in the logs
since the fix went in at roughly: Jan 3 22:50:11 2016 until now: Tue
Jan 5 15:28:02 2016
Only large-receive-offload was turned off with:
# ethtool -K eth0 lro off
# ethtool -K eth1 lro off
"
By making that change on all of the hosts, the Windows VMs all recovered.
This is likely not your exact issue, but its included here to show that
some OSes on VMs can have issues with the host NIC that the VM does not
support.
The issue may even be seen in the error logs on the host, as these were.
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
Users(a)ovirt.org
http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
10:53 a.m.
On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 6:11 PM, FERNANDO FREDIANI <
fernando.frediani(a)upx.com> wrote:
Hello all.
I have a peculiar problem here which perhaps others may have had or know
about and can advise.
I have Virtual Machine with 2 VirtIO NICs. This VM serves around 1Gbps of
traffic with thousands of clients connecting to it. When I do a packet loss
test to the IP pinned to NIC1 it varies from 3% to 10% of packet loss. When
I run the same test on NIC2 the packet loss is consistently 0%.
From what I gather I may have something to do with possible lack of Multi
Queu VirtIO where NIC1 is managed by a single CPU which might be hitting
100% and causing this packet loss.
Looking at this reference (https://fedoraproject.org/
wiki/Features/MQ_virtio_net) I see one way to test it is start the VM
with 4 queues (for example), but checking on the qemu-kvm process I don't
see option present. Any way I can force it from the Engine ?
I don't see a need for multi-queue for 1Gbps.
Can you share the host statistics, the network configuration, the qemu-kvm
command line, etc.?
What is the difference between NIC1 and NIC2, in the way they are connected
to the outside world?
This other reference (https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_
feature) points to the same direction about starting the VM with queues=N
Also trying to increase the TX ring buffer within the guest with ethtool
-g eth0 is not possible.
Oh, by the way, the Load on the VM is significantly high despite the CPU
usage isn't above 50% - 60% in average.
Load = latest 'top' results? Vs. CPU usage? Can mean a lot of processes
waiting for CPU and doing very little - typical for web servers, for
example. What is occupying the CPU?
Y.
Thanks
Fernando
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
Users(a)ovirt.org
http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
10:14 a.m.
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------9F08DEA242C3CF4ED7B43038
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello Yaniv.
It also looks to me initially that for 1Gbps multi-queue would not be
necessary, however the Virtual Machine is relatively busy where the CPU
necessary to process it may (or not) be competing with the processes
running on in the guest.
The network is as following: 3 x 1 Gb interfaces bonded together with
layer2+3 has algorithm where the VMs connect to the outside world.
vNIC1 and vNIC2 in the VMs are the same VirtIO NIC types. These vNICs
are connected to the same VLAN and they are both able to output 1Gbps
throughput each at the same time in iperf tests as the bond below has
3Gb capacity.
Please note something interesting I mentioned previously: All traffic
currently goes in and out via vNIC1 which is showing packet loss (3% to
10%) on the tests conducted. NIC2 has zero traffic and if the same tests
are conducted against it shows 0% packets loss.
At first impression if it was something related to the bond or even to
the physical NICs on the Host it should show packet loss for ANY of the
vNICs as the traffic flows through the same physical NIC and bond, but
is not the case.
This is the qemu-kvm command the Host is executing:
/usr/libexec/qemu-kvm -name guest=VM_NAME_REPLACED,debug-threads=on -S
-object
secret,id=masterKey0,format=raw,file=/var/lib/libvirt/qemu/domain-6-VM_NAME_REPLACED/master-key.aes
-machine pc-i440fx-rhel7.3.0,accel=kvm,usb=off -cpu SandyBridge -m 4096
-realtime mlock=off -smp 4,maxcpus=16,sockets=16,cores=1,threads=1 -numa
node,nodeid=0,cpus=0-3,mem=4096 -uuid
57ffc2ed-fec5-47d6-bfb1-60c728737bd2 -smbios
type=1,manufacturer=oVirt,product=oVirt
Node,version=7-3.1611.el7.centos,serial=4C4C4544-0043-5610-804B-B1C04F4E3232,uuid=57ffc2ed-fec5-47d6-bfb1-60c728737bd2
-no-user-config -nodefaults -chardev
socket,id=charmonitor,path=/var/lib/libvirt/qemu/domain-6-VM_NAME_REPLACED/monitor.sock,server,nowait
-mon chardev=charmonitor,id=monitor,mode=control -rtc
base=2017-03-17T01:12:39,driftfix=slew -global
kvm-pit.lost_tick_policy=discard -no-hpet -no-shutdown -boot strict=on
-device piix3-usb-uhci,id=usb,bus=pci.0,addr=0x1.0x2 -device
virtio-scsi-pci,id=scsi0,bus=pci.0,addr=0x7 -device
virtio-serial-pci,id=virtio-serial0,max_ports=16,bus=pci.0,addr=0x5
-drive if=none,id=drive-ide0-1-0,readonly=on -device
ide-cd,bus=ide.1,unit=0,drive=drive-ide0-1-0,id=ide0-1-0 -drive
file=/rhev/data-center/2325e1a4-c702-469c-82eb-ff43baa06d44/8dcd90f4-c0f0-47db-be39-5b49685acc04/images/ebe10e75-799a-439e-bc52-551b894c34fa/1a73cd53-0e51-4e49-8631-38cf571f6bb9,format=qcow2,if=none,id=drive-scsi0-0-0-0,serial=ebe10e75-799a-439e-bc52-551b894c34fa,cache=none,werror=stop,rerror=stop,aio=native
-device
scsi-hd,bus=scsi0.0,channel=0,scsi-id=0,lun=0,drive=drive-scsi0-0-0-0,id=scsi0-0-0-0,bootindex=1
-drive
file=/rhev/data-center/2325e1a4-c702-469c-82eb-ff43baa06d44/8dcd90f4-c0f0-47db-be39-5b49685acc04/images/db401b27-006d-494c-a1ee-1d37810710c8/664cffe6-52f8-429d-8bb9-2f43fa7a468f,format=qcow2,if=none,id=drive-scsi0-0-0-1,serial=db401b27-006d-494c-a1ee-1d37810710c8,cache=none,werror=stop,rerror=stop,aio=native
-device
scsi-hd,bus=scsi0.0,channel=0,scsi-id=0,lun=1,drive=drive-scsi0-0-0-1,id=scsi0-0-0-1
-netdev tap,fd=33,id=hostnet0,vhost=on,vhostfd=36 -device
virtio-net-pci,netdev=hostnet0,id=net0,mac=00:1a:4a:16:01:60,bus=pci.0,addr=0x3
-netdev tap,fd=37,id=hostnet1,vhost=on,vhostfd=38 -device
virtio-net-pci,netdev=hostnet1,id=net1,mac=00:1a:4a:16:01:61,bus=pci.0,addr=0x4
-chardev
socket,id=charchannel0,path=/var/lib/libvirt/qemu/channels/57ffc2ed-fec5-47d6-bfb1-60c728737bd2.com.redhat.rhevm.vdsm,server,nowait
-device
virtserialport,bus=virtio-serial0.0,nr=1,chardev=charchannel0,id=channel0,name=com.redhat.rhevm.vdsm
-chardev
socket,id=charchannel1,path=/var/lib/libvirt/qemu/channels/57ffc2ed-fec5-47d6-bfb1-60c728737bd2.org.qemu.guest_agent.0,server,nowait
-device
virtserialport,bus=virtio-serial0.0,nr=2,chardev=charchannel1,id=channel1,name=org.qemu.guest_agent.0
-chardev spicevmc,id=charchannel2,name=vdagent -device
virtserialport,bus=virtio-serial0.0,nr=3,chardev=charchannel2,id=channel2,name=com.redhat.spice.0
-vnc 192.168.100.19:2,password -k pt-br -spice
tls-port=5903,addr=192.168.100.19,x509-dir=/etc/pki/vdsm/libvirt-spice,tls-channel=default,tls-channel=main,tls-channel=display,tls-channel=inputs,tls-channel=cursor,tls-channel=playback,tls-channel=record,tls-channel=smartcard,tls-channel=usbredir,seamless-migration=on
-k pt-br -device
qxl-vga,id=video0,ram_size=67108864,vram_size=33554432,vram64_size_mb=0,vgamem_mb=16,bus=pci.0,addr=0x2
-incoming defer -device
virtio-balloon-pci,id=balloon0,bus=pci.0,addr=0x6 -object
rng-random,id=objrng0,filename=/dev/urandom -device
virtio-rng-pci,rng=objrng0,id=rng0,bus=pci.0,addr=0x8 -msg timestamp=on
Load in the VM is relatively high (20 to 30) and CPU usage is between
50% to 60% with eventual peaks of 100% in one of the vCPUs. There is a
lot of processes running in the VM similar to Web Servers which is using
this amount of CPU.
Only guess I could have so far is that traffic on NIC1 is being handeled
by one of the vCPUs which eventually get 100% due to some of the
processes while traffic on NIC2 is handled by another vCPU which is not
that busy and explains the 0% packet loss. BUT, should VirtIO vNIC use
CPU from within the Guest ?
Does it make any sense ?
Thanks
Fernando
On 18/03/2017 12:53, Yaniv Kaul wrote:
On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 6:11 PM, FERNANDO FREDIANI
<fernando.frediani(a)upx.com <mailto:fernando.frediani@upx.com>> wrote:
Hello all.
I have a peculiar problem here which perhaps others may have had
or know about and can advise.
I have Virtual Machine with 2 VirtIO NICs. This VM serves around
1Gbps of traffic with thousands of clients connecting to it. When
I do a packet loss test to the IP pinned to NIC1 it varies from 3%
to 10% of packet loss. When I run the same test on NIC2 the packet
loss is consistently 0%.
From what I gather I may have something to do with possible lack
of Multi Queu VirtIO where NIC1 is managed by a single CPU which
might be hitting 100% and causing this packet loss.
Looking at this reference
(https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MQ_virtio_net
<https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MQ_virtio_net>) I see one
way to test it is start the VM with 4 queues (for example), but
checking on the qemu-kvm process I don't see option present. Any
way I can force it from the Engine ?
I don't see a need for multi-queue for 1Gbps.
Can you share the host statistics, the network configuration, the
qemu-kvm command line, etc.?
What is the difference between NIC1 and NIC2, in the way they are
connected to the outside world?
This other reference
(https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature
<https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature>)
points to the same direction about starting the VM with queues=N
Also trying to increase the TX ring buffer within the guest with
ethtool -g eth0 is not possible.
Oh, by the way, the Load on the VM is significantly high despite
the CPU usage isn't above 50% - 60% in average.
Load = latest 'top' results? Vs. CPU usage? Can mean a lot of
processes waiting for CPU and doing very little - typical for web
servers, for example. What is occupying the CPU?
Y.
Thanks
Fernando
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
Users(a)ovirt.org <mailto:Users@ovirt.org>
http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
<http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users>
--------------9F08DEA242C3CF4ED7B43038
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Hello Yaniv.</p>
<p>It also looks to me initially that for 1Gbps multi-queue would
not be necessary, however the Virtual Machine is relatively busy
where the CPU necessary to process it may (or not) be competing
with the processes running on in the guest.</p>
<p>The network is as following: 3 x 1 Gb interfaces bonded together
with layer2+3 has algorithm where the VMs connect to the outside
world.<br>
vNIC1 and vNIC2 in the VMs are the same VirtIO NIC types. These
vNICs are connected to the same VLAN and they are both able to
output 1Gbps throughput each at the same time in iperf tests as
the bond below has 3Gb capacity.</p>
<p>Please note something interesting I mentioned previously: All
traffic currently goes in and out via vNIC1 which is showing
packet loss (3% to 10%) on the tests conducted. NIC2 has zero
traffic and if the same tests are conducted against it shows 0%
packets loss.<br>
At first impression if it was something related to the bond or
even to the physical NICs on the Host it should show packet loss
for ANY of the vNICs as the traffic flows through the same
physical NIC and bond, but is not the case.</p>
<p>This is the qemu-kvm command the Host is executing:<br>
/usr/libexec/qemu-kvm -name
guest=VM_NAME_REPLACED,debug-threads=on -S -object
secret,id=masterKey0,format=raw,file=/var/lib/libvirt/qemu/domain-6-VM_NAME_REPLACED/master-key.aes
-machine pc-i440fx-rhel7.3.0,accel=kvm,usb=off -cpu SandyBridge -m
4096 -realtime mlock=off -smp
4,maxcpus=16,sockets=16,cores=1,threads=1 -numa
node,nodeid=0,cpus=0-3,mem=4096 -uuid
57ffc2ed-fec5-47d6-bfb1-60c728737bd2 -smbios
type=1,manufacturer=oVirt,product=oVirt
Node,version=7-3.1611.el7.centos,serial=4C4C4544-0043-5610-804B-B1C04F4E3232,uuid=57ffc2ed-fec5-47d6-bfb1-60c728737bd2
-no-user-config -nodefaults -chardev
socket,id=charmonitor,path=/var/lib/libvirt/qemu/domain-6-VM_NAME_REPLACED/monitor.sock,server,nowait
-mon chardev=charmonitor,id=monitor,mode=control -rtc
base=2017-03-17T01:12:39,driftfix=slew -global
kvm-pit.lost_tick_policy=discard -no-hpet -no-shutdown -boot
strict=on -device piix3-usb-uhci,id=usb,bus=pci.0,addr=0x1.0x2
-device virtio-scsi-pci,id=scsi0,bus=pci.0,addr=0x7 -device
virtio-serial-pci,id=virtio-serial0,max_ports=16,bus=pci.0,addr=0x5
-drive if=none,id=drive-ide0-1-0,readonly=on -device
ide-cd,bus=ide.1,unit=0,drive=drive-ide0-1-0,id=ide0-1-0 -drive
file=/rhev/data-center/2325e1a4-c702-469c-82eb-ff43baa06d44/8dcd90f4-c0f0-47db-be39-5b49685acc04/images/ebe10e75-799a-439e-bc52-551b894c34fa/1a73cd53-0e51-4e49-8631-38cf571f6bb9,format=qcow2,if=none,id=drive-scsi0-0-0-0,serial=ebe10e75-799a-439e-bc52-551b894c34fa,cache=none,werror=stop,rerror=stop,aio=native
-device
scsi-hd,bus=scsi0.0,channel=0,scsi-id=0,lun=0,drive=drive-scsi0-0-0-0,id=scsi0-0-0-0,bootindex=1
-drive
file=/rhev/data-center/2325e1a4-c702-469c-82eb-ff43baa06d44/8dcd90f4-c0f0-47db-be39-5b49685acc04/images/db401b27-006d-494c-a1ee-1d37810710c8/664cffe6-52f8-429d-8bb9-2f43fa7a468f,format=qcow2,if=none,id=drive-scsi0-0-0-1,serial=db401b27-006d-494c-a1ee-1d37810710c8,cache=none,werror=stop,rerror=stop,aio=native
-device
scsi-hd,bus=scsi0.0,channel=0,scsi-id=0,lun=1,drive=drive-scsi0-0-0-1,id=scsi0-0-0-1
-netdev tap,fd=33,id=hostnet0,vhost=on,vhostfd=36 -device
virtio-net-pci,netdev=hostnet0,id=net0,mac=00:1a:4a:16:01:60,bus=pci.0,addr=0x3
-netdev tap,fd=37,id=hostnet1,vhost=on,vhostfd=38 -device
virtio-net-pci,netdev=hostnet1,id=net1,mac=00:1a:4a:16:01:61,bus=pci.0,addr=0x4
-chardev
socket,id=charchannel0,path=/var/lib/libvirt/qemu/channels/57ffc2ed-fec5-47d6-bfb1-60c728737bd2.com.redhat.rhevm.vdsm,server,nowait
-device
virtserialport,bus=virtio-serial0.0,nr=1,chardev=charchannel0,id=channel0,name=com.redhat.rhevm.vdsm
-chardev
socket,id=charchannel1,path=/var/lib/libvirt/qemu/channels/57ffc2ed-fec5-47d6-bfb1-60c728737bd2.org.qemu.guest_agent.0,server,nowait
-device
virtserialport,bus=virtio-serial0.0,nr=2,chardev=charchannel1,id=channel1,name=org.qemu.guest_agent.0
-chardev spicevmc,id=charchannel2,name=vdagent -device
virtserialport,bus=virtio-serial0.0,nr=3,chardev=charchannel2,id=channel2,name=com.redhat.spice.0
-vnc 192.168.100.19:2,password -k pt-br -spice
tls-port=5903,addr=192.168.100.19,x509-dir=/etc/pki/vdsm/libvirt-spice,tls-channel=default,tls-channel=main,tls-channel=display,tls-channel=inputs,tls-channel=cursor,tls-channel=playback,tls-channel=record,tls-channel=smartcard,tls-channel=usbredir,seamless-migration=on
-k pt-br -device
qxl-vga,id=video0,ram_size=67108864,vram_size=33554432,vram64_size_mb=0,vgamem_mb=16,bus=pci.0,addr=0x2
-incoming defer -device
virtio-balloon-pci,id=balloon0,bus=pci.0,addr=0x6 -object
rng-random,id=objrng0,filename=/dev/urandom -device
virtio-rng-pci,rng=objrng0,id=rng0,bus=pci.0,addr=0x8 -msg
timestamp=on<br>
</p>
<p>Load in the VM is relatively high (20 to 30) and CPU usage is
between 50% to 60% with eventual peaks of 100% in one of the
vCPUs. There is a lot of processes running in the VM similar to
Web Servers which is using this amount of CPU.</p>
<p>Only guess I could have so far is that traffic on NIC1 is being
handeled by one of the vCPUs which eventually get 100% due to some
of the processes while traffic on NIC2 is handled by another vCPU
which is not that busy and explains the 0% packet loss. BUT,
should VirtIO vNIC use CPU from within the Guest ?<br>
Does it make any sense ?</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 18/03/2017 12:53, Yaniv Kaul
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJgorsaK0pKUvkzecg+oGYwHCrw+essr8jiGk3cGPrzO9PGrqw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 6:11 PM,
FERNANDO FREDIANI <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:fernando.frediani@upx.com"
target="_blank">fernando.frediani(a)upx.com</a>&gt;</span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hello all.<br>
<br>
</div>
I have a peculiar problem here which
perhaps others may have had or know about
and can advise.<br>
<br>
</div>
I have Virtual Machine with 2 VirtIO NICs.
This VM serves around 1Gbps of traffic with
thousands of clients connecting to it. When
I do a packet loss test to the IP pinned to
NIC1 it varies from 3% to 10% of packet
loss. When I run the same test on NIC2 the
packet loss is consistently 0%.<br>
<br>
</div>
From what I gather I may have something to do
with possible lack of Multi Queu VirtIO where
NIC1 is managed by a single CPU which might be
hitting 100% and causing this packet loss.<br>
<br>
</div>
Looking at this reference (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MQ_virtio_net"
target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/<wbr>wiki/Fe...>)
I see one way to test it is start the VM with 4
queues (for example), but checking on the
qemu-kvm process I don't see option present. Any
way I can force it from the Engine ?<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't see a need for multi-queue for 1Gbps.</div>
<div>Can you share the host statistics, the network
configuration, the qemu-kvm command line, etc.?</div>
<div>What is the difference between NIC1 and NIC2, in the
way they are connected to the outside world?</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
This other reference (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature"
target="_blank">https://www.linux-kvm.org/<wbr>page/Mu...>)
points to the same direction about starting the VM
with queues=N<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Also trying to increase the TX ring buffer
within the guest with ethtool -g eth0 is not
possible.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Oh, by the way, the Load on the VM is significantly
high despite the CPU usage isn't above 50% - 60% in
average.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Load = latest 'top' results? Vs. CPU usage? Can mean a
lot of processes waiting for CPU and doing very little -
typical for web servers, for example. What is occupying
the CPU?</div>
<div>Y.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
Thanks<span class="HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
</font></span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888">Fernando<br>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></span></div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Users mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Users@ovirt.org">Users@ovirt.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://lists.ovirt.org/<wbr>mailman/li...
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>
--------------9F08DEA242C3CF4ED7B43038--
4:19 a.m.
On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 5:14 PM, FERNANDO FREDIANI <
fernando.frediani(a)upx.com> wrote:
Hello Yaniv.
It also looks to me initially that for 1Gbps multi-queue would not be
necessary, however the Virtual Machine is relatively busy where the CPU
necessary to process it may (or not) be competing with the processes
running on in the guest.
The network is as following: 3 x 1 Gb interfaces bonded together with
layer2+3 has algorithm where the VMs connect to the outside world.
Is your host with NUMA support (multiple sockets) ? Are all your interfaces
connected to the same socket? Perhaps one is on the 'other' socket (a
different PCI bus, etc.)? This can introduce latency.
In general, you would want to align everything, from host (interrupts of
the drivers) all the way to the guest to perform the processing on the same
socket.
Layer 2+3 may or may not provide you with good distribution across the
physical links, depending on the traffic. Layer 3+4 hashing is better, but
is not entirely compliant with all vendors/equipment.
vNIC1 and vNIC2 in the VMs are the same VirtIO NIC types. These vNICs are
connected to the same VLAN and they are both able to output 1Gbps
throughput each at the same time in iperf tests as the bond below has 3Gb
capacity.
Linux is not always happy with multiple interfaces on the same L2 network.
I think there are some params needed to be set to make it happy?
Please note something interesting I mentioned previously: All
traffic
currently goes in and out via vNIC1 which is showing packet loss (3% to
10%) on the tests conducted. NIC2 has zero traffic and if the same tests
are conducted against it shows 0% packets loss.
At first impression if it was something related to the bond or even to the
physical NICs on the Host it should show packet loss for ANY of the vNICs
as the traffic flows through the same physical NIC and bond, but is not the
case.
This is the qemu-kvm command the Host is executing:
/usr/libexec/qemu-kvm -name guest=VM_NAME_REPLACED,debug-threads=on -S
-object secret,id=masterKey0,format=raw,file=/var/lib/libvirt/
qemu/domain-6-VM_NAME_REPLACED/master-key.aes -machine
pc-i440fx-rhel7.3.0,accel=kvm,usb=off -cpu SandyBridge -m 4096 -realtime
mlock=off -smp 4,maxcpus=16,sockets=16,cores=1,threads=1 -numa
node,nodeid=0,cpus=0-3,mem=4096 -uuid 57ffc2ed-fec5-47d6-bfb1-60c728737bd2
-smbios type=1,manufacturer=oVirt,product=oVirt Node,version=7-3.1611.el7.
centos,serial=4C4C4544-0043-5610-804B-B1C04F4E3232,uuid=
57ffc2ed-fec5-47d6-bfb1-60c728737bd2 -no-user-config -nodefaults -chardev
socket,id=charmonitor,path=/var/lib/libvirt/qemu/domain-6-
VM_NAME_REPLACED/monitor.sock,server,nowait -mon
chardev=charmonitor,id=monitor,mode=control
-rtc base=2017-03-17T01:12:39,driftfix=slew -global
kvm-pit.lost_tick_policy=discard -no-hpet -no-shutdown -boot strict=on
-device piix3-usb-uhci,id=usb,bus=pci.0,addr=0x1.0x2 -device
virtio-scsi-pci,id=scsi0,bus=pci.0,addr=0x7 -device
virtio-serial-pci,id=virtio-serial0,max_ports=16,bus=pci.0,addr=0x5
-drive if=none,id=drive-ide0-1-0,readonly=on -device
ide-cd,bus=ide.1,unit=0,drive=drive-ide0-1-0,id=ide0-1-0 -drive
file=/rhev/data-center/2325e1a4-c702-469c-82eb-ff43baa06d44/8dcd90f4-c0f0-
47db-be39-5b49685acc04/images/ebe10e75-799a-439e-bc52-
551b894c34fa/1a73cd53-0e51-4e49-8631-38cf571f6bb9,format=
qcow2,if=none,id=drive-scsi0-0-0-0,serial=ebe10e75-799a-
439e-bc52-551b894c34fa,cache=none,werror=stop,rerror=stop,aio=native
-device scsi-hd,bus=scsi0.0,channel=0,scsi-id=0,lun=0,drive=drive-
scsi0-0-0-0,id=scsi0-0-0-0,bootindex=1 -drive file=/rhev/data-center/
2325e1a4-c702-469c-82eb-ff43baa06d44/8dcd90f4-c0f0-
47db-be39-5b49685acc04/images/db401b27-006d-494c-a1ee-
1d37810710c8/664cffe6-52f8-429d-8bb9-2f43fa7a468f,format=
qcow2,if=none,id=drive-scsi0-0-0-1,serial=db401b27-006d-
494c-a1ee-1d37810710c8,cache=none,werror=stop,rerror=stop,aio=native
-device
scsi-hd,bus=scsi0.0,channel=0,scsi-id=0,lun=1,drive=drive-scsi0-0-0-1,id=scsi0-0-0-1
-netdev tap,fd=33,id=hostnet0,vhost=on,vhostfd=36 -device
virtio-net-pci,netdev=hostnet0,id=net0,mac=00:1a:4a:16:01:60,bus=pci.0,addr=0x3
-netdev tap,fd=37,id=hostnet1,vhost=on,vhostfd=38 -device
virtio-net-pci,netdev=hostnet1,id=net1,mac=00:1a:4a:16:01:61,bus=pci.0,addr=0x4
-chardev socket,id=charchannel0,path=/var/lib/libvirt/qemu/channels/
57ffc2ed-fec5-47d6-bfb1-60c728737bd2.com.redhat.rhevm.vdsm,server,nowait
-device virtserialport,bus=virtio-serial0.0,nr=1,chardev=
charchannel0,id=channel0,name=com.redhat.rhevm.vdsm -chardev
socket,id=charchannel1,path=/var/lib/libvirt/qemu/channels/
57ffc2ed-fec5-47d6-bfb1-60c728737bd2.org.qemu.guest_agent.0,server,nowait
-device virtserialport,bus=virtio-serial0.0,nr=2,chardev=
charchannel1,id=channel1,name=org.qemu.guest_agent.0 -chardev
spicevmc,id=charchannel2,name=vdagent -device virtserialport,bus=virtio-
serial0.0,nr=3,chardev=charchannel2,id=channel2,name=com.redhat.spice.0
-vnc 192.168.100.19:2,password -k pt-br -spice tls-port=5903,addr=192.168.
100.19,x509-dir=/etc/pki/vdsm/libvirt-spice,tls-channel=
default,tls-channel=main,tls-channel=display,tls-channel=
inputs,tls-channel=cursor,tls-channel=playback,tls-channel=
record,tls-channel=smartcard,tls-channel=usbredir,seamless-migration=on
-k pt-br -device qxl-vga,id=video0,ram_size=67108864,vram_size=33554432,
vram64_size_mb=0,vgamem_mb=16,bus=pci.0,addr=0x2 -incoming defer -device
virtio-balloon-pci,id=balloon0,bus=pci.0,addr=0x6 -object
rng-random,id=objrng0,filename=/dev/urandom -device
virtio-rng-pci,rng=objrng0,id=rng0,bus=pci.0,addr=0x8 -msg timestamp=on
Load in the VM is relatively high (20 to 30) and CPU usage is between 50%
to 60% with eventual peaks of 100% in one of the vCPUs. There is a lot of
processes running in the VM similar to Web Servers which is using this
amount of CPU.
Only guess I could have so far is that traffic on NIC1 is being handeled
by one of the vCPUs which eventually get 100% due to some of the processes
while traffic on NIC2 is handled by another vCPU which is not that busy and
explains the 0% packet loss. BUT, should VirtIO vNIC use CPU from within
the Guest ?
Does it make any sense ?
Thanks
That can explain it. Ideally, you need to also streamline the processing
in the guest. The relevant application should be on the same NUMA node as
the vCPU processing the virtio-net interrupts.
In your case, the VM sees a single NUMA node - does that match the
underlying host architecture as well?
Y.
Fernando
On 18/03/2017 12:53, Yaniv Kaul wrote:
On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 6:11 PM, FERNANDO FREDIANI <
fernando.frediani(a)upx.com> wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I have a peculiar problem here which perhaps others may have had or know
> about and can advise.
>
> I have Virtual Machine with 2 VirtIO NICs. This VM serves around 1Gbps of
> traffic with thousands of clients connecting to it. When I do a packet loss
> test to the IP pinned to NIC1 it varies from 3% to 10% of packet loss. When
> I run the same test on NIC2 the packet loss is consistently 0%.
>
> From what I gather I may have something to do with possible lack of Multi
> Queu VirtIO where NIC1 is managed by a single CPU which might be hitting
> 100% and causing this packet loss.
>
> Looking at this reference (https://fedoraproject.org/wik
> i/Features/MQ_virtio_net) I see one way to test it is start the VM with
> 4 queues (for example), but checking on the qemu-kvm process I don't see
> option present. Any way I can force it from the Engine ?
>
I don't see a need for multi-queue for 1Gbps.
Can you share the host statistics, the network configuration, the qemu-kvm
command line, etc.?
What is the difference between NIC1 and NIC2, in the way they are
connected to the outside world?
>
> This other reference (https://www.linux-kvm.org/pag
> e/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature) points to the same direction about
> starting the VM with queues=N
>
> Also trying to increase the TX ring buffer within the guest with ethtool
> -g eth0 is not possible.
>
> Oh, by the way, the Load on the VM is significantly high despite the CPU
> usage isn't above 50% - 60% in average.
>
Load = latest 'top' results? Vs. CPU usage? Can mean a lot of processes
waiting for CPU and doing very little - typical for web servers, for
example. What is occupying the CPU?
Y.
>
> Thanks
> Fernando
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> Users(a)ovirt.org
> http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>
>
10 a.m.
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------E6119F5318438FF584A61CEE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Yaniv
On 21/03/2017 06:19, Yaniv Kaul wrote:
Is your host with NUMA support (multiple sockets) ? Are all your
interfaces connected to the same socket? Perhaps one is on the 'other'
socket (a different PCI bus, etc.)? This can introduce latency.
In general, you would want to align everything, from host (interrupts
of the drivers) all the way to the guest to perform the processing on
the same socket.
I believe so it is. Look:
~]# dmesg | grep -i numa
[ 0.000000] Enabling automatic NUMA balancing. Configure with
numa_balancing= or the kernel.numa_balancing sysctl
[ 0.693082] pci_bus 0000:00: on NUMA node 0
[ 0.696457] pci_bus 0000:40: on NUMA node 1
[ 0.700678] pci_bus 0000:3f: on NUMA node 0
[ 0.704844] pci_bus 0000:7f: on NUMA node 1
The thing is, if was something affecting the underlying network layer
(drivers for the physical nics for example) it would affect all traffic
to the VM, not just the one going in/out via vNIC1, right ?
Layer 2+3 may or may not provide you with good distribution across the
physical links, depending on the traffic. Layer 3+4 hashing is better,
but is not entirely compliant with all vendors/equipment.
Yes, I have tested with
both and both work well. Have settled on
layer2+3 as it balances the traffic equally layer3+4 for my scenario.
Initially I have guessed it could be the bonding, but ruled that out
when I tested with another physical interface that doesn't have any
bonding and the problem happened the same for the VM in question.
Linux is not always happy with multiple interfaces on the same L2
network. I think there are some params needed to be set to make it happy?
Yes you
are right and yes, knowing of that I have configured PBR using
iproute2 which makes Linux work happy in this scenario. Works like a charm.
That can explain it. Ideally, you need to also streamline the
processing in the guest. The relevant application should be on the
same NUMA node as the vCPU processing the virtio-net interrupts.
In your case, the VM sees a single NUMA node - does that match the
underlying host architecture as well?
Not sure. The command line from qemu-kvm is
automatically generated by
oVirt. Perhaps some extra option to be changed under Advanced Parameters
on VM CPU configuration ? Also I was wondering if enabling "IO Threads
Enabled" under Resource Allocation could be of any help.
To finish I more inclined to understand that problem is restricted to
the VM, not to the Host(drivers, physical NICs, etc), given the packet
loss happens in vNIC1 not in vNIC2 when it has no traffic. If it was in
the Host level or bonding it would affect the whole VM traffic in either
vNICs.
As a last resource I am considering add an extra 2 vCPUs to the VMs, but
I guess that will only lower the problem. Does anyone think that
"Threads per Core" or IO Thread could be a better choice ?
Thanks
Fernando
On 18/03/2017 12:53, Yaniv Kaul wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 6:11 PM, FERNANDO FREDIANI
> <fernando.frediani(a)upx.com <mailto:fernando.frediani@upx.com>> wrote:
>
> Hello all.
>
> I have a peculiar problem here which perhaps others may have had
> or know about and can advise.
>
> I have Virtual Machine with 2 VirtIO NICs. This VM serves around
> 1Gbps of traffic with thousands of clients connecting to it. When
> I do a packet loss test to the IP pinned to NIC1 it varies from
> 3% to 10% of packet loss. When I run the same test on NIC2 the
> packet loss is consistently 0%.
>
> From what I gather I may have something to do with possible lack
> of Multi Queu VirtIO where NIC1 is managed by a single CPU which
> might be hitting 100% and causing this packet loss.
>
> Looking at this reference
> (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MQ_virtio_net
> <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MQ_virtio_net>) I see
> one way to test it is start the VM with 4 queues (for example),
> but checking on the qemu-kvm process I don't see option present.
> Any way I can force it from the Engine ?
>
>
> I don't see a need for multi-queue for 1Gbps.
> Can you share the host statistics, the network configuration, the
> qemu-kvm command line, etc.?
> What is the difference between NIC1 and NIC2, in the way they are
> connected to the outside world?
>
>
> This other reference
> (https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature
> <https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature>)
> points to the same direction about starting the VM with queues=N
>
> Also trying to increase the TX ring buffer within the guest with
> ethtool -g eth0 is not possible.
>
> Oh, by the way, the Load on the VM is significantly high despite
> the CPU usage isn't above 50% - 60% in average.
>
>
> Load = latest 'top' results? Vs. CPU usage? Can mean a lot of
> processes waiting for CPU and doing very little - typical for web
> servers, for example. What is occupying the CPU?
> Y.
>
>
> Thanks
> Fernando
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> Users(a)ovirt.org <mailto:Users@ovirt.org>
> http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> <http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users>
>
>
--------------E6119F5318438FF584A61CEE
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Hi Yaniv<br>
</p>
On 21/03/2017 06:19, Yaniv Kaul wrote:<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJgorsaVtaNyz4iJf=ZeRGkZE_n32JKYq9oxEUzoKRQyr8VD5w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra">Is your host with NUMA support
(multiple sockets) ? Are all your interfaces connected to the
same socket? Perhaps one is on the 'other' socket (a different
PCI bus, etc.)? This can introduce latency.
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>In general, you would want to align everything, from
host (interrupts of the drivers) all the way to the guest
to perform the processing on the same socket.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I believe so it is. Look:<br>
~]# dmesg | grep -i numa<br>
[ 0.000000] Enabling automatic NUMA balancing. Configure with
numa_balancing= or the kernel.numa_balancing sysctl<br>
[ 0.693082] pci_bus 0000:00: on NUMA node 0<br>
[ 0.696457] pci_bus 0000:40: on NUMA node 1<br>
[ 0.700678] pci_bus 0000:3f: on NUMA node 0<br>
[ 0.704844] pci_bus 0000:7f: on NUMA node 1<br>
<br>
The thing is, if was something affecting the underlying network
layer (drivers for the physical nics for example) it would affect
all traffic to the VM, not just the one going in/out via vNIC1,
right ?<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJgorsaVtaNyz4iJf=ZeRGkZE_n32JKYq9oxEUzoKRQyr8VD5w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Layer 2+3 may or may not provide you with good
distribution across the physical links, depending on the
traffic. Layer 3+4 hashing is better, but is not entirely
compliant with all vendors/equipment.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Yes, I have tested with both and both work well. Have settled on
layer2+3 as it balances the traffic equally layer3+4 for my
scenario.<br>
Initially I have guessed it could be the bonding, but ruled that out
when I tested with another physical interface that doesn't have any
bonding and the problem happened the same for the VM in question.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJgorsaVtaNyz4iJf=ZeRGkZE_n32JKYq9oxEUzoKRQyr8VD5w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>Linux is not always happy with multiple interfaces on
the same L2 network. I think there are some params needed
to be set to make it happy?</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Yes you are right and yes, knowing of that I have configured PBR
using iproute2 which makes Linux work happy in this scenario. Works
like a charm.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJgorsaVtaNyz4iJf=ZeRGkZE_n32JKYq9oxEUzoKRQyr8VD5w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That can explain it. Ideally, you need to also
streamline the processing in the guest. The relevant
application should be on the same NUMA node as the vCPU
processing the virtio-net interrupts.</div>
<div>In your case, the VM sees a single NUMA node - does
that match the underlying host architecture as well?</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Not sure. The command line from qemu-kvm is automatically generated
by oVirt. Perhaps some extra option to be changed under Advanced
Parameters on VM CPU configuration ? Also I was wondering if
enabling "IO Threads Enabled" under Resource Allocation could be of
any help.<br>
<br>
To finish I more inclined to understand that problem is restricted
to the VM, not to the Host(drivers, physical NICs, etc), given the
packet loss happens in vNIC1 not in vNIC2 when it has no traffic. If
it was in the Host level or bonding it would affect the whole VM
traffic in either vNICs.<br>
As a last resource I am considering add an extra 2 vCPUs to the VMs,
but I guess that will only lower the problem. Does anyone think that
"Threads per Core" or IO Thread could be a better choice ?<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
Fernando<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJgorsaVtaNyz4iJf=ZeRGkZE_n32JKYq9oxEUzoKRQyr8VD5w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span
class="HOEnZb"></span>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
<div class="m_7680788519611111480moz-cite-prefix">On
18/03/2017 12:53, Yaniv Kaul wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at
6:11 PM, FERNANDO FREDIANI <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:fernando.frediani@upx.com"
target="_blank">fernando.frediani(a)upx.com</a>&gt;</span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hello all.<br>
<br>
</div>
I have a peculiar problem
here which perhaps others
may have had or know about
and can advise.<br>
<br>
</div>
I have Virtual Machine with 2
VirtIO NICs. This VM serves
around 1Gbps of traffic with
thousands of clients
connecting to it. When I do a
packet loss test to the IP
pinned to NIC1 it varies from
3% to 10% of packet loss. When
I run the same test on NIC2
the packet loss is
consistently 0%.<br>
<br>
</div>
From what I gather I may have
something to do with possible
lack of Multi Queu VirtIO where
NIC1 is managed by a single CPU
which might be hitting 100% and
causing this packet loss.<br>
<br>
</div>
Looking at this reference (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MQ_virtio_net"
target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wik<wbr>i/Fe...>)
I see one way to test it is start
the VM with 4 queues (for
example), but checking on the
qemu-kvm process I don't see
option present. Any way I can
force it from the Engine ?<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't see a need for multi-queue for
1Gbps.</div>
<div>Can you share the host statistics, the
network configuration, the qemu-kvm command
line, etc.?</div>
<div>What is the difference between NIC1 and
NIC2, in the way they are connected to the
outside world?</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
This other reference (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature"
target="_blank">https://www.linux-kvm.org/pag<wbr>e/Mu...>)
points to the same direction about
starting the VM with queues=N<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Also trying to increase the TX
ring buffer within the guest with
ethtool -g eth0 is not possible.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Oh, by the way, the Load on the VM is
significantly high despite the CPU
usage isn't above 50% - 60% in
average.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Load = latest 'top' results? Vs. CPU
usage? Can mean a lot of processes waiting
for CPU and doing very little - typical for
web servers, for example. What is occupying
the CPU?</div>
<div>Y.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
Thanks<span
class="m_7680788519611111480HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
</font></span></div>
<span
class="m_7680788519611111480HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888">Fernando<br>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></span></div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Users mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Users@ovirt.org"
target="_blank">Users(a)ovirt.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman<wbr>/li...
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>
--------------E6119F5318438FF584A61CEE--
10:31 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 5:00 PM, FERNANDO FREDIANI <
fernando.frediani(a)upx.com> wrote:
Hi Yaniv
On 21/03/2017 06:19, Yaniv Kaul wrote:
Is your host with NUMA support (multiple sockets) ? Are all your
interfaces connected to the same socket? Perhaps one is on the 'other'
socket (a different PCI bus, etc.)? This can introduce latency.
In general, you would want to align everything, from host (interrupts of
the drivers) all the way to the guest to perform the processing on the same
socket.
I believe so it is. Look:
~]# dmesg | grep -i numa
[ 0.000000] Enabling automatic NUMA balancing. Configure with
numa_balancing= or the kernel.numa_balancing sysctl
[ 0.693082] pci_bus 0000:00: on NUMA node 0
[ 0.696457] pci_bus 0000:40: on NUMA node 1
[ 0.700678] pci_bus 0000:3f: on NUMA node 0
[ 0.704844] pci_bus 0000:7f: on NUMA node 1
So there are 2 NUMA nodes on the host? And where are the NICs located?
The thing is, if was something affecting the underlying network layer
(drivers for the physical nics for example) it would affect all traffic to
the VM, not just the one going in/out via vNIC1, right ?
Most likely.
Layer 2+3 may or may not provide you with good distribution across the
physical links, depending on the traffic. Layer 3+4 hashing is better, but
is not entirely compliant with all vendors/equipment.
Yes, I have tested with both and both work well. Have settled on layer2+3
as it balances the traffic equally layer3+4 for my scenario.
Initially I have guessed it could be the bonding, but ruled that out when
I tested with another physical interface that doesn't have any bonding and
the problem happened the same for the VM in question.
Linux is not always happy with multiple interfaces on the same L2 network.
I think there are some params needed to be set to make it happy?
Yes you are right and yes, knowing of that I have configured PBR using
iproute2 which makes Linux work happy in this scenario. Works like a charm.
BTW, since those are virtual interfaces, why do you need two on the same
VLAN?
That can explain it. Ideally, you need to also streamline the processing
in the guest. The relevant application should be on the same NUMA node as
the vCPU processing the virtio-net interrupts.
In your case, the VM sees a single NUMA node - does that match the
underlying host architecture as well?
Not sure. The command line from qemu-kvm is automatically generated by
oVirt. Perhaps some extra option to be changed under Advanced Parameters on
VM CPU configuration ? Also I was wondering if enabling "IO Threads
Enabled" under Resource Allocation could be of any help.
IO threads are for IO (= storage, perhaps it's not clear and we need to
clarify it) and only useful with large number of disks (and IO of course).
To finish I more inclined to understand that problem is restricted to the
VM, not to the Host(drivers, physical NICs, etc), given the packet loss
happens in vNIC1 not in vNIC2 when it has no traffic. If it was in the Host
level or bonding it would affect the whole VM traffic in either vNICs.
As a last resource I am considering add an extra 2 vCPUs to the VMs, but I
guess that will only lower the problem. Does anyone think that "Threads per
Core" or IO Thread could be a better choice ?
Are you using hyper-threading on the host? Otherwise, I'm not sure threads
per core would help.
Y.
Thanks
Fernando
On 18/03/2017 12:53, Yaniv Kaul wrote:
On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 6:11 PM, FERNANDO FREDIANI <
fernando.frediani(a)upx.com> wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I have a peculiar problem here which perhaps others may have had or know
> about and can advise.
>
> I have Virtual Machine with 2 VirtIO NICs. This VM serves around 1Gbps of
> traffic with thousands of clients connecting to it. When I do a packet loss
> test to the IP pinned to NIC1 it varies from 3% to 10% of packet loss. When
> I run the same test on NIC2 the packet loss is consistently 0%.
>
> From what I gather I may have something to do with possible lack of Multi
> Queu VirtIO where NIC1 is managed by a single CPU which might be hitting
> 100% and causing this packet loss.
>
> Looking at this reference (https://fedoraproject.org/wik
> i/Features/MQ_virtio_net) I see one way to test it is start the VM with
> 4 queues (for example), but checking on the qemu-kvm process I don't see
> option present. Any way I can force it from the Engine ?
>
I don't see a need for multi-queue for 1Gbps.
Can you share the host statistics, the network configuration, the qemu-kvm
command line, etc.?
What is the difference between NIC1 and NIC2, in the way they are
connected to the outside world?
>
> This other reference (https://www.linux-kvm.org/pag
> e/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature) points to the same direction about
> starting the VM with queues=N
>
> Also trying to increase the TX ring buffer within the guest with ethtool
> -g eth0 is not possible.
>
> Oh, by the way, the Load on the VM is significantly high despite the CPU
> usage isn't above 50% - 60% in average.
>
Load = latest 'top' results? Vs. CPU usage? Can mean a lot of processes
waiting for CPU and doing very little - typical for web servers, for
example. What is occupying the CPU?
Y.
>
> Thanks
> Fernando
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> Users(a)ovirt.org
> http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>
>
1:14 p.m.
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------90DBE1C09961831317864F04
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello Yaniv.
Have a new information about this scenario: I have load-balanced the
requests between both vNICs, so each is receiving/sending half of the
traffic in average and the packet loss although it still exists it
lowered to 1% - 2% (which was expected as the CPU to process this
traffic is shared by more than one CPU at a time).
However the Load on the VM is still high probably due to the interrupts.
Find below in-line the answers to some of your points:
On 21/03/2017 12:31, Yaniv Kaul wrote:
So there are 2 NUMA nodes on the host? And where are the NICs located?
Tried to
search how to check it but couldn't find how. Could you give me
a hint ?
BTW, since those are virtual interfaces, why do you need two on the
same VLAN?
Very good question. It's because of an specific situation where I
need
to 2 MAC addresses in order to balance the traffic in LAG in a switch
which does only layer 2 hashing.
Are you using hyper-threading on the host? Otherwise, I'm not
sure
threads per core would help.
Yes I have hyper-threading enabled on the Host. Is it
worth to enable it ?
Thanks
Fernando
>
> On 18/03/2017 12:53, Yaniv Kaul wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 6:11 PM, FERNANDO FREDIANI
>> <fernando.frediani(a)upx.com <mailto:fernando.frediani@upx.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello all.
>>
>> I have a peculiar problem here which perhaps others may have
>> had or know about and can advise.
>>
>> I have Virtual Machine with 2 VirtIO NICs. This VM serves
>> around 1Gbps of traffic with thousands of clients connecting
>> to it. When I do a packet loss test to the IP pinned to NIC1
>> it varies from 3% to 10% of packet loss. When I run the same
>> test on NIC2 the packet loss is consistently 0%.
>>
>> From what I gather I may have something to do with possible
>> lack of Multi Queu VirtIO where NIC1 is managed by a single
>> CPU which might be hitting 100% and causing this packet loss.
>>
>> Looking at this reference
>> (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MQ_virtio_net
>> <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MQ_virtio_net>) I
>> see one way to test it is start the VM with 4 queues (for
>> example), but checking on the qemu-kvm process I don't see
>> option present. Any way I can force it from the Engine ?
>>
>>
>> I don't see a need for multi-queue for 1Gbps.
>> Can you share the host statistics, the network configuration,
>> the qemu-kvm command line, etc.?
>> What is the difference between NIC1 and NIC2, in the way they
>> are connected to the outside world?
>>
>>
>> This other reference
>> (https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature
>> <https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature>)
>> points to the same direction about starting the VM with queues=N
>>
>> Also trying to increase the TX ring buffer within the guest
>> with ethtool -g eth0 is not possible.
>>
>> Oh, by the way, the Load on the VM is significantly high
>> despite the CPU usage isn't above 50% - 60% in average.
>>
>>
>> Load = latest 'top' results? Vs. CPU usage? Can mean a lot of
>> processes waiting for CPU and doing very little - typical for
>> web servers, for example. What is occupying the CPU?
>> Y.
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> Fernando
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Users mailing list
>> Users(a)ovirt.org <mailto:Users@ovirt.org>
>> http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>> <http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users>
>>
>>
>
>
--------------90DBE1C09961831317864F04
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Hello Yaniv.</p>
<p>Have a new information about this scenario: I have load-balanced
the requests between both vNICs, so each is receiving/sending half
of the traffic in average and the packet loss although it still
exists it lowered to 1% - 2% (which was expected as the CPU to
process this traffic is shared by more than one CPU at a time).<br>
However the Load on the VM is still high probably due to the
interrupts.</p>
<p>Find below in-line the answers to some of your points:<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/03/2017 12:31, Yaniv Kaul
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJgorsaVQzthC8Mq+Gpa66e6SB4SfvzwftE8ViH8bE4jv3r4eg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra">So there are 2 NUMA nodes on the host?
And where are the NICs located?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Tried to search how to check it but couldn't find how. Could you
give me a hint ?<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJgorsaVQzthC8Mq+Gpa66e6SB4SfvzwftE8ViH8bE4jv3r4eg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> <br>
<span class=""> </span></div>
BTW, since those are virtual interfaces, why do you need two
on the same VLAN?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Very good question. It's because of an specific situation where I
need to 2 MAC addresses in order to balance the traffic in LAG in a
switch which does only layer 2 hashing.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJgorsaVQzthC8Mq+Gpa66e6SB4SfvzwftE8ViH8bE4jv3r4eg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> </div>
Are you using hyper-threading on the host? Otherwise, I'm
not sure threads per core would help.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Yes I have hyper-threading enabled on the Host. Is it worth to
enable it ?<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
Fernando<br>
<span class=""></span><br>
<span class=""> </span>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJgorsaVQzthC8Mq+Gpa66e6SB4SfvzwftE8ViH8bE4jv3r4eg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span
class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000"><span
class="m_-144604539708212250HOEnZb"></span>
<div>
<div class="m_-144604539708212250h5">
<br>
<div
class="m_-144604539708212250m_7680788519611111480moz-cite-prefix">On
18/03/2017 12:53, Yaniv Kaul wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri,
Mar 17, 2017 at 6:11 PM,
FERNANDO FREDIANI <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:fernando.frediani@upx.com"
target="_blank">fernando.frediani(a)upx.com</a>&gt;</span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hello
all.<br>
<br>
</div>
I have a
peculiar
problem here
which perhaps
others may
have had or
know about and
can advise.<br>
<br>
</div>
I have Virtual
Machine with 2
VirtIO NICs.
This VM serves
around 1Gbps of
traffic with
thousands of
clients
connecting to
it. When I do a
packet loss test
to the IP pinned
to NIC1 it
varies from 3%
to 10% of packet
loss. When I run
the same test on
NIC2 the packet
loss is
consistently 0%.<br>
<br>
</div>
From what I gather
I may have
something to do
with possible lack
of Multi Queu
VirtIO where NIC1
is managed by a
single CPU which
might be hitting
100% and causing
this packet loss.<br>
<br>
</div>
Looking at this
reference (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MQ_virtio_net"
target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wik<wbr>i/Fe...>)
I see one way to
test it is start the
VM with 4 queues
(for example), but
checking on the
qemu-kvm process I
don't see option
present. Any way I
can force it from
the Engine ?<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't see a need for
multi-queue for 1Gbps.</div>
<div>Can you share the host
statistics, the network
configuration, the qemu-kvm
command line, etc.?</div>
<div>What is the difference
between NIC1 and NIC2, in the
way they are connected to the
outside world?</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
This other reference (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature"
target="_blank">https://www.linux-kvm.org/pag<wbr>e/Mu...>)
points to the same
direction about
starting the VM with
queues=N<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Also trying to
increase the TX ring
buffer within the
guest with ethtool -g
eth0 is not possible.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Oh, by the way, the Load
on the VM is
significantly high
despite the CPU usage
isn't above 50% - 60% in
average.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Load = latest 'top'
results? Vs. CPU usage? Can
mean a lot of processes
waiting for CPU and doing very
little - typical for web
servers, for example. What is
occupying the CPU?</div>
<div>Y.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
Thanks<span
class="m_-144604539708212250m_7680788519611111480HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
</font></span></div>
<span
class="m_-144604539708212250m_7680788519611111480HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888">Fernando<br>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></span></div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Users mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Users@ovirt.org"
target="_blank">Users(a)ovirt.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman<wbr>/li...
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>
--------------90DBE1C09961831317864F04--
4 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 8:14 PM, FERNANDO FREDIANI <
fernando.frediani(a)upx.com> wrote:
Hello Yaniv.
Have a new information about this scenario: I have load-balanced the
requests between both vNICs, so each is receiving/sending half of the
traffic in average and the packet loss although it still exists it lowered
to 1% - 2% (which was expected as the CPU to process this traffic is shared
by more than one CPU at a time).
However the Load on the VM is still high probably due to the interrupts.
Find below in-line the answers to some of your points:
On 21/03/2017 12:31, Yaniv Kaul wrote:
So there are 2 NUMA nodes on the host? And where are the NICs located?
Tried to search how to check it but couldn't find how. Could you give me a
hint ?
I believe 'lspci -vmm' should provide you with node information per PCI
device.
'numactl' can also provide interesting information.
BTW, since those are virtual interfaces, why do you need two on the same
VLAN?
Very good question. It's because of an specific situation where I need to
2 MAC addresses in order to balance the traffic in LAG in a switch which
does only layer 2 hashing.
Are you using hyper-threading on the host? Otherwise, I'm not sure threads
per core would help.
Yes I have hyper-threading enabled on the Host. Is it worth to enable it ?
Depends on the workload. Some benefit from it, some don't. I wouldn't in
your case (it benefits mainly the case of many VMs with small number of
vCPUs).
Y.
Thanks
Fernando
> On 18/03/2017 12:53, Yaniv Kaul wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 6:11 PM, FERNANDO FREDIANI <
> fernando.frediani(a)upx.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello all.
>>
>> I have a peculiar problem here which perhaps others may have had or know
>> about and can advise.
>>
>> I have Virtual Machine with 2 VirtIO NICs. This VM serves around 1Gbps
>> of traffic with thousands of clients connecting to it. When I do a packet
>> loss test to the IP pinned to NIC1 it varies from 3% to 10% of packet loss.
>> When I run the same test on NIC2 the packet loss is consistently 0%.
>>
>> From what I gather I may have something to do with possible lack of
>> Multi Queu VirtIO where NIC1 is managed by a single CPU which might be
>> hitting 100% and causing this packet loss.
>>
>> Looking at this reference (https://fedoraproject.org/wik
>> i/Features/MQ_virtio_net) I see one way to test it is start the VM with
>> 4 queues (for example), but checking on the qemu-kvm process I don't see
>> option present. Any way I can force it from the Engine ?
>>
>
> I don't see a need for multi-queue for 1Gbps.
> Can you share the host statistics, the network configuration, the
> qemu-kvm command line, etc.?
> What is the difference between NIC1 and NIC2, in the way they are
> connected to the outside world?
>
>
>>
>> This other reference (https://www.linux-kvm.org/pag
>> e/Multiqueue#Enable_MQ_feature) points to the same direction about
>> starting the VM with queues=N
>>
>> Also trying to increase the TX ring buffer within the guest with ethtool
>> -g eth0 is not possible.
>>
>> Oh, by the way, the Load on the VM is significantly high despite the CPU
>> usage isn't above 50% - 60% in average.
>>
>
> Load = latest 'top' results? Vs. CPU usage? Can mean a lot of processes
> waiting for CPU and doing very little - typical for web servers, for
> example. What is occupying the CPU?
> Y.
>
>
>>
>> Thanks
>> Fernando
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Users mailing list
>> Users(a)ovirt.org
>> http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
2833
days inactive
2837
days old
9 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
-
FERNANDO FREDIANI -
Phil Meyer -
Yaniv Kaul