On 17/09/15 15:44, Luca Bertoncello wrote:

Hello Alex

...

You can't live migrate on a host failure - as the host has gone down and all the running VMs on it have as well! It would require clairvoyance to enable live migration in that situation. Is it possible to enable that? How?

No, it's physically impossible. If your host running VM "foo" has unexpectedly gone down (ie the PSU failed), VM "foo" has also gone down. Therefore it is not possible to live migrate the VM "foo" since it is not longer running! Even if it was a network failure and the host was still up, how would you live migrate a VM from a host you can't even talk to? The only way you could do it was if you somehow magically knew far enough in advance that the host was about to fail (!) and that gave enough time to migrate the machines off. But how would you ever know that "machine quux.bar.net is going to fail in 7 minutes"?

...

However you can enable HA in VMs. If the host they are running on fails they will be restarted automatically on another host. NB. This *requires* power management so the failed host can be fenced. Well, we don't have a Power-Management, right now... We have Dell hardware, but this PC (right now I just experiment, so I don't use "real servers") does not have any PM... Maybe there is an emulator or other solution to check how does it work?

You can use "Manual Fencing" but I don't even know if that is enabled in Ovirt. However it would need your intervention (Ie you are told that a host has failed, and asked, if it is not powered off, to go and power it off by hand. Once you have confirmed that is done, the VMs will start on the other host. The reason you have to fence the failed machine is to make sure you don't end up with two of the same VM running, which would completely corrupt the image on the shared storage. When using plain old libvirt, I have more than once accidentally started the same VM on two hosts, and the VM was utterly unrecoverable afterwards.

On the Servers we have Drac6, but oVirt has just Drac5 or Drac7... It does not work with Drac6?

I don't know. Maybe just try both, and run the test on the PM config tab? Otherwise how about picking up a second-hand APC network switched PDU off ebay? That is actually one of the best ways to enable fencing. Cheers Alex -- This message is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential information. Unless you are that person, you may not disclose its contents or use it in any way and are requested to delete the message along with any attachments and notify us immediately. "Transact" is operated by Integrated Financial Arrangements plc. 29 Clement's Lane, London EC4N 7AE. Tel: (020) 7608 4900 Fax: (020) 7608 5300. (Registered office: as above; Registered in England and Wales under number: 3727592). Authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority (entered on the Financial Services Register; no. 190856). .

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030408080509030502030104 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't really think this is practical:

- If the PSU failed, your UPS could alert you. If you have one...

If you have only one PSU in a host, a UPS is not going to stop you losing all the VMs on that host. OK, if you had N+1 PSUs, you may be able to monitor for this (IPMI/LOM/DRAC etc)and use the API to put a host into maintenance. Also a lot of people rely on low-cost white-box servers and decide that it's OK if a single PSU in a host dies, as, well, we have HA to start on other hosts. If they have N+1 PSUs in the hosts do they really have to migrate everything off? Swings and roundabouts really. I'm also not sure I've seen any practical DC setups where a UPS can monitor the load for every single attached physical machine and figure out that one of the redundant PSUs in it has failed - I'd love to know if there are as that would be really cool.

- If the machine is going down in an ordinary flow, surely it can be done.

Isn't that what "Maintenance mode" is for?

Even if it was a network failure and the host was still up, how would you live migrate a VM from a host you can't even talk to?

It could be suspended to disk (local) - if the disk is available. Then the decision if it is to be resumed from local disk or not (as it might be HA'ed and is running elsewhere) need to be taken later, of course.

Yes, but that's not even remotely possible with Ovirt right now. I was trying to be practical as the OP has only just started using Ovirt and I think it might be a bit much to ask him to start coding up what he'd like.

The only way you could do it was if you somehow magically knew far enough in advance that the host was about to fail (!) and that gave enough time to migrate the machines off. But how would you ever know that "machine quux.bar.net <http://quux.bar.net> is going to fail in 7 minutes"?

I completely agree there are situations in which you can't foresee the failure. But in many, you can. In those cases, it makes sense for the host to self-initiate 'move to maintenance' mode. The policy of what to do when 'self-moving-to-maintenance-mode' could be pre-fetched from the engine. Y.

Hmm, I would love that to be true. But I've seen so many so called "corner-cases" that I now think the failure area in a datacenter is a fractal with infinite corners. Yes, you could monitor SMART on local drives, pick up uncorrected ECC errors, use "sensors" to check for sagging voltages or high temps, but I don't think you can ever hope to catch everything, and you could end up doing a migration "storm" for . I've had more than enough of "Enterprise Spec" switches suddenly going nuts and spamming corrupt MACs all over the LAN to know you can't ever account for everything. I think it's better to adopt the model of redundancy in software and services, so no-one even notices if a VM host goes away, there's always something else to take up the slack. Just like the origins of the Internet - the network should be dumb and the applications should cope with it! Any infrastructure that can't cope with the loss of a few VMs for a few minutes probably needs a refresh. Cheers Alex . --------------030408080509030502030104 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> I don't really think this is practical:<br> <br> <blockquote cite="mid:CAJgorsZ_8CXErXzt45TXarPqJ8SKfRL8-W4objPxL6xr4pm49Q@mail.gmail.com" type="cite"> <div dir="ltr"> <div class="gmail_extra"> <div class="gmail_quote"> <div>- If the PSU failed, your UPS could alert you. If you have one...</div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> <br> If you have only one PSU in a host, a UPS is not going to stop you losing all the VMs on that host. OK, if you had N+1 PSUs, you may be able to monitor for this (IPMI/LOM/DRAC etc)and use the API to put a host into maintenance. Also a lot of people rely on low-cost white-box servers and decide that it's OK if a single PSU in a host dies, as, well, we have HA to start on other hosts. If they have N+1 PSUs in the hosts do they really have to migrate everything off? Swings and roundabouts really.<br> <br> I'm also not sure I've seen any practical DC setups where a UPS can monitor the load for every single attached physical machine and figure out that one of the redundant PSUs in it has failed - I'd love to know if there are as that would be really cool.<br> <br> <blockquote cite="mid:CAJgorsZ_8CXErXzt45TXarPqJ8SKfRL8-W4objPxL6xr4pm49Q@mail.gmail.com" type="cite"> <div dir="ltr"> <div class="gmail_extra"> <div class="gmail_quote"> <div>- If the machine is going down in an ordinary flow, surely it can be done. <br> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> <br> Isn't that what "Maintenance mode" is for?<br> <br> <blockquote cite="mid:CAJgorsZ_8CXErXzt45TXarPqJ8SKfRL8-W4objPxL6xr4pm49Q@mail.gmail.com" type="cite"> <div dir="ltr"> <div class="gmail_extra"> <div class="gmail_quote"> <div> </div> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br> Even if it was a network failure and the host was still up, how would you live migrate a VM from a host you can't even talk to?<br> </blockquote> <div><br> </div> <div>It could be suspended to disk (local) - if the disk is available.</div> <div>Then the decision if it is to be resumed from local disk or not (as it might be HA'ed and is running elsewhere) need to be taken later, of course.</div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> <br> Yes, but that's not even remotely possible with Ovirt right now. I was trying to be practical as the OP has only just started using Ovirt and I think it might be a bit much to ask him to start coding up what he'd like.<br> <br> <blockquote cite="mid:CAJgorsZ_8CXErXzt45TXarPqJ8SKfRL8-W4objPxL6xr4pm49Q@mail.gmail.com" type="cite"> <div dir="ltr"> <div class="gmail_extra"> <div class="gmail_quote"> <div><br> </div> <div> </div> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br> The only way you could do it was if you somehow magically knew far enough in advance that the host was about to fail (!) and that gave enough time to migrate the machines off. But how would you ever know that "machine <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://quux.bar.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">quux.bar.net</a> is going to fail in 7 minutes"?</blockquote> <div><br> </div> <div>I completely agree there are situations in which you can't foresee the failure. </div> <div>But in many, you can. In those cases, it makes sense for the host to self-initiate 'move to maintenance' mode. The policy of what to do when 'self-moving-to-maintenance-mode' could be pre-fetched from the engine.</div> <div>Y.</div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> <br> Hmm, I would love that to be true. But I've seen so many so called "corner-cases" that I now think the failure area in a datacenter is a fractal with infinite corners. Yes, you could monitor SMART on local drives, pick up uncorrected ECC errors, use "sensors" to check for sagging voltages or high temps, but I don't think you can ever hope to catch everything, and you could end up doing a migration "storm" for . I've had more than enough of "Enterprise Spec" switches suddenly going nuts and spamming corrupt MACs all over the LAN to know you can't ever account for everything.<br> <br> I think it's better to adopt the model of redundancy in software and services, so no-one even notices if a VM host goes away, there's always something else to take up the slack. Just like the origins of the Internet - the network should be dumb and the applications should cope with it! Any infrastructure that can't cope with the loss of a few VMs for a few minutes probably needs a refresh.<br> <br> Cheers<br> <br> Alex<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> . <br> </body> </html> --------------030408080509030502030104--

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Hi Alex

2) My question was: "what can I do, so that in case of Kernel Panic or similar, the VM will be migrated (live or not) to another host?"

You would make the VMs HA and acquire a fencing solution.

What do you mean now? Have two VM and build a cluster? This is not what we want... If it's possible, I'd like to have more Host AS CLUSTER with migration of the VM between the nodes... I think oVirt already do that, since I have to create Clusters. For me a Cluster is not just "more nodes with the same CPU", but also something with load balancing or high availability...

3) I'd like to have a shutdown-script on the host that put the host in Maintenance and wait until it's done, so that I can just shutdown or reboot it without any other action. Is it possible? It would help to manage the power failure, too, assuming that other hosts have better UPS (it can be possible.)

You could probably use the REST API on the Ovirt Engine for that.But it might be better to have a highly available machine (VM or not) running something like Nagios or Icinga which would perform the monitoring of your hosts and connect to the REST API to perform maintenance and shutdown. You might also consider a UPS service like NUT (unless you're already doing it).

Well, I already use NUT and we have Icinga monitoring the hosts. But I can't understand what you mean and (more important!) how can I do it... I checked the REST API and the CLI. I can write a little script to put an host in Maintenance or active it again, that's not the problem. The problem is to have somewhat starting this script automatically... Any suggestion? Icinga will not be the solution, since it checks the host every 5 minutes or so, but we need to have this script started in seconds... Thanks Mit freundlichen Grüßen Luca Bertoncello -- Besuchen Sie unsere Webauftritte: www.queo.biz Agentur für Markenführung und Kommunikation www.queoflow.com IT-Consulting und Individualsoftwareentwicklung Luca Bertoncello Administrator Telefon: +49 351 21 30 38 0 Fax: +49 351 21 30 38 99 E-Mail: l.bertoncello@queo-group.com queo GmbH Tharandter Str. 13 01159 Dresden Sitz der Gesellschaft: Dresden Handelsregistereintrag: Amtsgericht Dresden HRB 22352 Geschäftsführer: Rüdiger Henke, André Pinkert USt-IdNr.: DE234220077

Hello Gianluca,

You should also RTFM sooner or later.... ;-) http://www.ovirt.org/OVirt_Administration_Guide

In particular for this HA related concepts: http://www.ovirt.org/OVirt_Administration_Guide#Virtual_Machine_High_Availab... and http://www.ovirt.org/OVirt_Administration_Guide#Host_Resilience

Really, I don't think this documentation is good... I read this page many times and try to understand how the program works, but I have many doubt... In particular, the link you sent about HA: of course I read them and I configured the VMs with these settings, but really, I can't understand how can I set more host as a Cluster allowing automatically migration of the VMs when a host dies... Regards Mit freundlichen Grüßen Luca Bertoncello -- Besuchen Sie unsere Webauftritte: www.queo.biz Agentur für Markenführung und Kommunikation www.queoflow.com IT-Consulting und Individualsoftwareentwicklung Luca Bertoncello Administrator Telefon: +49 351 21 30 38 0 Fax: +49 351 21 30 38 99 E-Mail: l.bertoncello@queo-group.com queo GmbH Tharandter Str. 13 01159 Dresden Sitz der Gesellschaft: Dresden Handelsregistereintrag: Amtsgericht Dresden HRB 22352 Geschäftsführer: Rüdiger Henke, André Pinkert USt-IdNr.: DE234220077

Really? in the main page you have also: High Availability Considerations A highly available host requires a power management device and its fencing parameters configured. In addition, for a virtual machine to be highly available when its host becomes non-operational, it needs to be started on another available host in the cluster. To enable the migration of highly available virtual machines: • Power management must be configured for the hosts running the highly available virtual machines. • The host running the highly available virtual machine must be part of a cluster which has other available hosts. • The destination host must be running. • The source and destination host must have access to the data domain on which the virtual machine resides. • The source and destination host must have access to the same virtual networks and VLANs. • There must be enough CPUs on the destination host that are not in use to support the virtual machine's requirements. • There must be enough RAM on the destination host that is not in use to support the virtual machine's requirements.

What in particular is not clear and need better explanation?

Well, right now my problem is to understand how can I "simulate" this Power management. Maybe in the future, if we decide that oVirt is the right solution for us, we will buy some Power management system (APC or similar). But now, for the experiments, I can't ask my boss to pay >500€ for a device that maybe we will not use... By the way: I find really funny, that I can't define an Cluster with automatically migration of the VM without Power management. OK, I know what it can happens if the host is not really dead, but at least to allow that, with warnings and so on, should be nice... Regards Mit freundlichen Grüßen Luca Bertoncello -- Besuchen Sie unsere Webauftritte: www.queo.biz Agentur für Markenführung und Kommunikation www.queoflow.com IT-Consulting und Individualsoftwareentwicklung Luca Bertoncello Administrator Telefon: +49 351 21 30 38 0 Fax: +49 351 21 30 38 99 E-Mail: l.bertoncello@queo-group.com queo GmbH Tharandter Str. 13 01159 Dresden Sitz der Gesellschaft: Dresden Handelsregistereintrag: Amtsgericht Dresden HRB 22352 Geschäftsführer: Rüdiger Henke, André Pinkert USt-IdNr.: DE234220077

On 18/09/15 07:59, Luca Bertoncello wrote:

Hi Alex

...

2) My question was: "what can I do, so that in case of Kernel Panic or similar, the VM will be migrated (live or not) to another host?"

You would make the VMs HA and acquire a fencing solution. What do you mean now? Have two VM and build a cluster? This is not what we want... If it's possible, I'd like to have more Host AS CLUSTER with migration of the VM between the nodes... I think oVirt already do that, since I have to create Clusters. For me a Cluster is not just "more nodes with the same CPU", but also something with load balancing or high availability...

No, use the built in HA in Ovirt. Which requires a fencing solution. This means that if a host goes down the VMs on it will autostart on another host in the cluster. Yes, it's a cluster of *hosts*. In fact in the Ovirt Interface you can see "clusters" in the tree view! We use the built in Ovirt HA for >200 VMs over 6 hosts and it works just fine. We lost a host fairly recently and only a couple of people (out of over 300) who use the services of a single VM noticed. Ovirt also supports balancing the VM load across hosts. That is part of the cluster policy. You can also set affinity and anti-affinity of VMs. You can also have hosts actually migrate off VMs when they are idle and the host to power down to save on your electricity bill. When load on other hosts reaches a limit, the host will be powered back on and VMs will start migrating to it.

...

3) I'd like to have a shutdown-script on the host that put the host in Maintenance and wait until it's done, so that I can just shutdown or reboot it without any other action. Is it possible? It would help to manage the power failure, too, assuming that other hosts have better UPS (it can be possible.) You could probably use the REST API on the Ovirt Engine for that.But it might be better to have a highly available machine (VM or not) running something like Nagios or Icinga which would perform the monitoring of your hosts and connect to the REST API to perform maintenance and shutdown. You might also consider a UPS service like NUT (unless you're already doing it). Well, I already use NUT and we have Icinga monitoring the hosts. But I can't understand what you mean and (more important!) how can I do it...

I checked the REST API and the CLI. I can write a little script to put an host in Maintenance or active it again, that's not the problem. The problem is to have somewhat starting this script automatically...

Any suggestion? Icinga will not be the solution, since it checks the host every 5 minutes or so, but we need to have this script started in seconds...

Thanks

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Luca Bertoncello

The rest is out of scope of Ovirt. Icinga was just a suggestion. You don't have to use it - but you can change the check interval for a check to whatever you want. I was just stating that you should be wary of running your checks/scripts from a host if what you are trying to trigger on is that host going down or having issues. And if 5 minutes is too long maybe you need a bigger UPS? We have 1 hour battery runtime on ours at the moment (think it's a 160kVA central UPS offhand). Alex

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