[Users] 3.2.2 allinone install fails on CentOS 6.4
Alon Bar-Lev
alonbl at redhat.com
Thu Jul 18 12:42:35 UTC 2013
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Kinney" <jim.kinney at gmail.com>
> To: "Alon Bar-Lev" <alonbl at redhat.com>
> Cc: users at ovirt.org, "Alex Lourie" <alourie at redhat.com>, "Moran Goldboim" <mgoldboi at redhat.com>, "Itamar Heim"
> <iheim at redhat.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 3:38:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Users] 3.2.2 allinone install fails on CentOS 6.4
>
> Woo!
>
> Found the problem (I think). ipa-server was also installed on the same
> system. When ovirt ran, it detected this and suggested using ports 8700 and
> 8701 which I used. Apparently jboss uses those ports? I removed ipa-server
> and had options to configure new ports for engine to use. I put in 8700 and
> 8701 but the installer said "NO!" and noted that jboss was already claiming
> those ports.
>
> So I'm in but there was a cert problem. The SHA1 fingerprint reported by
> the engine-setup was NOT the one presented by the self-signed security cert
> on login.
The SSL certificate is not self-signed, it is signed by the CA certificate the setup enrolls.
>
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 7:52 AM, Alon Bar-Lev <alonbl at redhat.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jim Kinney" <jim.kinney at gmail.com>
> > > To: "Alon Bar-Lev" <alonbl at redhat.com>
> > > Cc: users at ovirt.org, "Alex Lourie" <alourie at redhat.com>, "Moran
> > Goldboim" <mgoldboi at redhat.com>, "Itamar Heim"
> > > <iheim at redhat.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 2:45:06 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Users] 3.2.2 allinone install fails on CentOS 6.4
> > >
> > > Will do. Suggested version? I can't tell from ovirt site which engine has
> > > apache integrated. Or am I looking for jboss-as integrated with apache?
> > >
> >
> > This is a new installation, right?
> > If it is, please start from scratch and when prompted select to configure
> > apache.
> > Execute:
> > # engine-cleanup
> > # engine-setup
> >
> > If you need to preserve this system then simplest method for now is to:
> > 1. copy apache.p12 to jboss.p12
> > 2. chown jboss.p12 to ovirt and set mode of 0600.
> >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 3:05 AM, Alon Bar-Lev <alonbl at redhat.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Itamar Heim" <iheim at redhat.com>
> > > > > To: "Jim Kinney" <jim.kinney at gmail.com>
> > > > > Cc: users at ovirt.org, "Alex Lourie" <alourie at redhat.com>, "Alon
> > Bar-Lev"
> > > > <alonbl at redhat.com>, "Moran Goldboim"
> > > > > <mgoldboi at redhat.com>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 6:42:02 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Users] 3.2.2 allinone install fails on CentOS 6.4
> > > > >
> > > > > On 07/17/2013 11:55 PM, Jim Kinney wrote:
> > > > > > I'm tying to install $STABLE (3.2.2) on CentOS 6.4 . I have the
> > repo
> > > > for
> > > > > > the el6 from ovirt.
> > > > >
> > > > > this looks like
> > > > > packaging: Creating keystore for jboss use
> > > >
> > > > Indeed.
> > > >
> > > > Jim, I suggest you install engine with apache integration, apache
> > > > integration is forced in 3.3 so better to be ready.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Currently jboss uses apache.p12 keystore file. In cases
> > > > > where apache is not used for proxying, jboss tries to
> > > > > use this file directly and fails on permissions.
> > > > >
> > > > > This patch tries to resolve the issue by adding an additional
> > > > > keystore jboss.p12 during setup/upgrade for the use by the jboss.
> > > > >
> > > > > Change-Id: I22d71d9de011e8af4bde26d9e2a048a6387ce70f
> > > > > Signed-off-by: Alex Lourie <alourie at redhat.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > http://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/12374/
> > > > >
> > > > > alex - was it backported to 3.2?
> > > > > i also see some other potentially relevant patches were backported to
> > > > > 3.2.2 by alon - shouldn't we refresh the build for this?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://gerrit.ovirt.org/gitweb?p=ovirt-engine.git;a=shortlog;h=refs%2Fheads%2Fengine_3.2
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Before the engine-setup --with-allinone=yes can complete it errors
> > out
> > > > > > with the following in the setup log:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::all_in_one_100::451::root:: Checking
> > JBoss
> > > > > > status.
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::INFO::all_in_one_100::454::root:: JBoss is up
> > and
> > > > > > running.
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::setup_sequences::59::root:: running
> > initAPI
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::all_in_one_100::240::root:: Initiating
> > the
> > > > > > API object
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::ERROR::all_in_one_100::251::root:: Traceback
> > (most
> > > > > > recent call last):
> > > > > > File
> > "/usr/share/ovirt-engine/scripts/plugins/all_in_one_100.py",
> > > > > > line 248, in initAPI
> > > > > > ca_file=basedefs.FILE_CA_CRT_SRC,
> > > > > > File "/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/ovirtsdk/api.py", line
> > 119,
> > > > in
> > > > > > __init__
> > > > > > url='/api'
> > > > > > File
> > > > > >
> > "/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/ovirtsdk/infrastructure/proxy.py",
> > > > > > line 112, in request
> > > > > > persistent_auth=self._persistent_auth)
> > > > > > File
> > > > > >
> > "/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/ovirtsdk/infrastructure/proxy.py",
> > > > > > line 134, in __doRequest
> > > > > > persistent_auth=persistent_auth
> > > > > > File
> > "/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/ovirtsdk/web/connection.py",
> > > > > > line 148, in doRequest
> > > > > > raise ConnectionError, str(e)
> > > > > > ConnectionError: [ERROR]::oVirt API connection failure, [Errno 111]
> > > > > > Connection refused
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::setup_sequences::62::root:: Traceback
> > (most
> > > > > > recent call last):
> > > > > > File "/usr/share/ovirt-engine/scripts/setup_sequences.py", line
> > 60,
> > > > > > in run
> > > > > > function()
> > > > > > File
> > "/usr/share/ovirt-engine/scripts/plugins/all_in_one_100.py",
> > > > > > line 252, in initAPI
> > > > > > raise Exception(ERROR_CREATE_API_OBJECT)
> > > > > > Exception: Error: could not create ovirtsdk API object
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1972::root:: *** The
> > > > following
> > > > > > params were used as user input:
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root::
> > > > > > override-httpd-config: no
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root:: http-port:
> > 8700
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root:: https-port:
> > 8701
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root::
> > > > random-passwords: no
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root:: mac-range:
> > > > > > 00:1A:4A:8C:8A:00-00:1A:4A:8C:8A:FF
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root:: host-fqdn:
> > > > > > storage01.mydomain.me <http://storage01.mydomain.me>
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root:: auth-pass:
> > > > ********
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root:: org-name:
> > > > > > mydomain.me <http://mydomain.me>
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root::
> > > > application-mode:
> > > > > > virt
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root::
> > default-dc-type:
> > > > > > POSIXFS
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root::
> > > > > > db-remote-install: local
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root:: db-host:
> > > > localhost
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root::
> > db-local-pass:
> > > > > > ********
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root:: nfs-mp:
> > > > > > /var/lib/exports/iso
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root::
> > iso-domain-name:
> > > > > > ISO_DOMAIN
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root:: config-nfs:
> > yes
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root::
> > > > > > override-firewall: None
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root::
> > > > config-allinone: yes
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root::
> > storage-path:
> > > > > > /var/lib/images
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::DEBUG::engine-setup::1977::root::
> > superuser-pass:
> > > > > > ********
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 15:52:47::ERROR::engine-setup::2392::root:: Traceback
> > (most
> > > > > > recent call last):
> > > > > > File "/usr/bin/engine-setup", line 2386, in <module>
> > > > > > main(confFile)
> > > > > > File "/usr/bin/engine-setup", line 2169, in main
> > > > > > runSequences()
> > > > > > File "/usr/bin/engine-setup", line 2092, in runSequences
> > > > > > controller.runAllSequences()
> > > > > > File "/usr/share/ovirt-engine/scripts/setup_controller.py",
> > line 54,
> > > > > > in runAllSequences
> > > > > > sequence.run()
> > > > > > File "/usr/share/ovirt-engine/scripts/setup_sequences.py", line
> > 154,
> > > > > > in run
> > > > > > step.run()
> > > > > > File "/usr/share/ovirt-engine/scripts/setup_sequences.py", line
> > 60,
> > > > > > in run
> > > > > > function()
> > > > > > File
> > "/usr/share/ovirt-engine/scripts/plugins/all_in_one_100.py",
> > > > > > line 252, in initAPI
> > > > > > raise Exception(ERROR_CREATE_API_OBJECT)
> > > > > > Exception: Error: could not create ovirtsdk API object
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > After much digging, it seems like the issue is in the certs but
> > it's
> > > > not
> > > > > > making sense to me why it fails. From the server.log:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 16:37:28,873 INFO
> > [org.jboss.as.server.deployment.scanner]
> > > > > > (MSC service thread 1-3) JBAS015012: Started
> > > > FileSystemDeploymentService
> > > > > > for directory /var/lib/ovirt-engine/deployments
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 16:37:28,877 ERROR
> > > > > > [org.apache.tomcat.util.net.jsse.JSSESocketFactory] (MSC service
> > thread
> > > > > > 1-4) Failed to load keystore type PKCS12 with path
> > > > > > /etc/pki/ovirt-engine/keys/apache.p12 due to
> > > > > > /etc/pki/ovirt-engine/keys/apache.p12 (Permission denied):
> > > > > > java.io.FileNotFoundException:
> > /etc/pki/ovirt-engine/keys/apache.p12
> > > > > > (Permission denied)
> > > > > > at java.io.FileInputStream.open(Native Method)
> > [rt.jar:1.7.0_25]
> > > > > > at java.io.FileInputStream.<init>(FileInputStream.java:138)
> > > > > > [rt.jar:1.7.0_25]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.apache.tomcat.util.net.jsse.JSSESocketFactory.getStore(JSSESocketFactory.java:374)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.apache.tomcat.util.net.jsse.JSSESocketFactory.getKeystore(JSSESocketFactory.java:299)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.apache.tomcat.util.net.jsse.JSSESocketFactory.getKeyManagers(JSSESocketFactory.java:515)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.apache.tomcat.util.net.jsse.JSSESocketFactory.init(JSSESocketFactory.java:452)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.apache.tomcat.util.net.jsse.JSSESocketFactory.createSocket(JSSESocketFactory.java:168)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > org.apache.tomcat.util.net.JIoEndpoint.init(JIoEndpoint.java:977)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > org.apache.coyote.http11.Http11Protocol.init(Http11Protocol.java:190)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > org.apache.catalina.connector.Connector.init(Connector.java:983)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.jboss.as.web.WebConnectorService.start(WebConnectorService.java:267)
> > > > > > [jboss-as-web-7.1.1.Final.jar:7.1.1.Final]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.jboss.msc.service.ServiceControllerImpl$StartTask.startService(ServiceControllerImpl.java:1811)
> > > > > > [jboss-msc-1.0.2.GA.jar:1.0.2.GA <http://1.0.2.GA>]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.jboss.msc.service.ServiceControllerImpl$StartTask.run(ServiceControllerImpl.java:1746)
> > > > > > [jboss-msc-1.0.2.GA.jar:1.0.2.GA <http://1.0.2.GA>]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor.runWorker(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:1145)
> > > > > > [rt.jar:1.7.0_25]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:615)
> > > > > > [rt.jar:1.7.0_25]
> > > > > > at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:724) [rt.jar:1.7.0_25]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 16:37:28,883 ERROR
> > [org.apache.coyote.http11.Http11Protocol]
> > > > > > (MSC service thread 1-4) Error initializing endpoint:
> > > > > > java.io.FileNotFoundException:
> > /etc/pki/ovirt-engine/keys/apache.p12
> > > > > > (Permission denied)
> > > > > > at java.io.FileInputStream.open(Native Method)
> > [rt.jar:1.7.0_25]
> > > > > > at java.io.FileInputStream.<init>(FileInputStream.java:138)
> > > > > > [rt.jar:1.7.0_25]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.apache.tomcat.util.net.jsse.JSSESocketFactory.getStore(JSSESocketFactory.java:374)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.apache.tomcat.util.net.jsse.JSSESocketFactory.getKeystore(JSSESocketFactory.java:299)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.apache.tomcat.util.net.jsse.JSSESocketFactory.getKeyManagers(JSSESocketFactory.java:515)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.apache.tomcat.util.net.jsse.JSSESocketFactory.init(JSSESocketFactory.java:452)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.apache.tomcat.util.net.jsse.JSSESocketFactory.createSocket(JSSESocketFactory.java:168)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > org.apache.tomcat.util.net.JIoEndpoint.init(JIoEndpoint.java:977)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > org.apache.coyote.http11.Http11Protocol.init(Http11Protocol.java:190)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > org.apache.catalina.connector.Connector.init(Connector.java:983)
> > > > > > [jbossweb-7.0.13.Final.jar:]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.jboss.as.web.WebConnectorService.start(WebConnectorService.java:267)
> > > > > > [jboss-as-web-7.1.1.Final.jar:7.1.1.Final]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.jboss.msc.service.ServiceControllerImpl$StartTask.startService(ServiceControllerImpl.java:1811)
> > > > > > [jboss-msc-1.0.2.GA.jar:1.0.2.GA <http://1.0.2.GA>]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.jboss.msc.service.ServiceControllerImpl$StartTask.run(ServiceControllerImpl.java:1746)
> > > > > > [jboss-msc-1.0.2.GA.jar:1.0.2.GA <http://1.0.2.GA>]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor.runWorker(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:1145)
> > > > > > [rt.jar:1.7.0_25]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:615)
> > > > > > [rt.jar:1.7.0_25]
> > > > > > at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:724) [rt.jar:1.7.0_25]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 16:37:28,892 ERROR [org.jboss.msc.service.fail] (MSC
> > service
> > > > > > thread 1-4) MSC00001: Failed to start service
> > > > jboss.web.connector.https:
> > > > > > org.jboss.msc.service.StartException in service
> > > > > > jboss.web.connector.https: JBAS018007: Error starting web connector
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.jboss.as.web.WebConnectorService.start(WebConnectorService.java:271)
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.jboss.msc.service.ServiceControllerImpl$StartTask.startService(ServiceControllerImpl.java:1811)
> > > > > > [jboss-msc-1.0.2.GA.jar:1.0.2.GA <http://1.0.2.GA>]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.jboss.msc.service.ServiceControllerImpl$StartTask.run(ServiceControllerImpl.java:1746)
> > > > > > [jboss-msc-1.0.2.GA.jar:1.0.2.GA <http://1.0.2.GA>]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor.runWorker(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:1145)
> > > > > > [rt.jar:1.7.0_25]
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:615)
> > > > > > [rt.jar:1.7.0_25]
> > > > > > at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:724) [rt.jar:1.7.0_25]
> > > > > > Caused by: LifecycleException: Protocol handler initialization
> > failed:
> > > > > > java.io.FileNotFoundException:
> > /etc/pki/ovirt-engine/keys/apache.p12
> > > > > > (Permission denied)
> > > > > > at
> > > > org.apache.catalina.connector.Connector.init(Connector.java:985)
> > > > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > org.jboss.as.web.WebConnectorService.start(WebConnectorService.java:267)
> > > > > > ... 5 more
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 16:37:28,904 INFO
> > [org.jboss.as.server.deployment.scanner]
> > > > > > (DeploymentScanner-threads - 1) JBAS015003: Found engine.ear in
> > > > > > deployment directory. To trigger deployment create a file called
> > > > > > engine.ear.dodeploy
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 16:37:28,957 INFO
> > > > > > [org.jboss.as.connector.subsystems.datasources] (MSC service thread
> > > > > > 1-11) JBAS010400: Bound data source [java:/ENGINEDataSource]
> > > > > > 2013-07-17 16:37:28,966 INFO [org.jboss.as.controller] (Controller
> > > > Boot
> > > > > > Thread) JBAS014774: Service status report
> > > > > > JBAS014777: Services which failed to start: service
> > > > > > jboss.web.connector.https: org.jboss.msc.service.StartException in
> > > > > > service jboss.web.connector.https: JBAS018007: Error starting web
> > > > connector
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the /etc/pki/ovirt-engine/keys:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ls -la /etc/pki/ovirt-engine/keys/
> > > > > > total 24
> > > > > > drwxr-xr-x. 2 ovirt ovirt 4096 Jul 17 15:51 .
> > > > > > drwxr-xr-x. 6 ovirt ovirt 4096 Jul 17 15:51 ..
> > > > > > -rw-r-----. 1 apache apache 1828 Jul 17 15:51 apache.key.nopass
> > > > > > -rw-r-----. 1 apache apache 2685 Jul 17 15:51 apache.p12
> > > > > > -rw-------. 1 root root 1832 Jul 17 15:51 engine_id_rsa
> > > > > > -rw-r-----. 1 ovirt ovirt 2685 Jul 17 15:51 engine.p12
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've tried with setenforce 0 and no change.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've downgraded to earlier 3.2.0 versions, earlier jboss-as, beta
> > > > > > allinone plugin for 3.2, no changes. At one point I added some
> > > > > > additional debuggingto the allinone script to make sure that
> > reasonable
> > > > > > variables were being passed around (they are).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm stumped.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > James P. Kinney III
> > > > > > ////
> > > > > > ////Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail.
> > What
> > > > > > you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog
> > on
> > > > > > his own tail. It won't fatten the dog.
> > > > > > - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain
> > > > > > ////
> > > > > > http://electjimkinney.org
> > > > > > http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
> > > > > > ////
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Users mailing list
> > > > > > Users at ovirt.org
> > > > > > http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > James P. Kinney III
> > > *
> > > *Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you
> > gain
> > > at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own
> > tail.
> > > It won't fatten the dog.
> > > - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain
> > > *
> > > http://electjimkinney.org
> > > http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
> > > *
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --
> James P. Kinney III
> *
> *Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
> at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
> It won't fatten the dog.
> - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain
> *
> http://electjimkinney.org
> http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
> *
>
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