10:03 a.m.
On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 09:50:07 AM Tomas Jelinek wrote:
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alexander Wels" <awels(a)redhat.com>
> To: engine-devel(a)ovirt.org
> Cc: "Tomas Jelinek" <tjelinek(a)redhat.com>, "Michal
Skrivanek"
> <michal.skrivanek(a)redhat.com>, "Eldan Hildesheim"
<ehildesh(a)redhat.com>,
> "info" <info(a)eldanet.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 3:33:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] [UX] how to design a bar/line chart?
>
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 09:25:34 AM Tomas Jelinek wrote:
> > Hey all,
> >
> > let me conclude what has been written in this thread to one proposal:
> >
> > == From the UX perspective the behavior ==
> > - each time the FE will receive new data and this data are different
> > from
> > the old ones, visualize it in the chart It means if you will keep
> > pressing
> > the refresh button but the data will not change, no new data will be
> > visualized (an exception will be the 0 usage) - the amount of data
> > visualized will depend on the size of the widget (since the tables are
> > resizable). It means that if you make the widget bigger you will not see
> > the same chart bigger but more data. - If you make the widget bigger,
> > only
> > then the amount of data will start to increase: e.g.
> >
> > before resize:
> > | /-------\ |
> > |
> > |/ \|
> >
> > after resize:
> > | /-------\ |
> > |
> > |/ \ |
> >
> > and only now the new data will start to appear
> >
> > == From FE technical point of view ==
> > - since I have not found any GWT library which would be acceptable (e.g.
> > actively developed and without the need to connect to google servers)
> > and
> > given that the required chart is quite simple I guess it would be ok to
> > write it by myself. - according to Einav's mail it is ok to use HTML5
> > canvas so I would go with writing a new widget using HTML5 canvas
>
> Just to throw out something to think about, we could also in theory
> generate an image on the server side and simply display that image inside
> the grid (so no need for HTML5 canvas or other things like that). The
> idea being basically that when the grid refreshes it makes a request for
> a new image on the back- end with the appropriate timeframe and the
> back-end generates the image which is easy to embed inside the grid.
>
> pros:
> * Easy to embed inside grid (just an image tag).
> * Works on all browsers, even ones without HTML5 canvas support.
> cons:
> * More load on the back-end.
> * Extra round trips to back-end on refresh.
> * Not 'hot' like HTML5 canvas.
> * No interactivity if that is something we are interested in.
some more cons:
* need to remember the statistics on server in the memory. For thousands of
VMs it is not something we would like to do * lots of overhead to retrieve
all the images on each refresh. If you have 100 VMs on a page and refresh
each 5 seconds, it is 100 images transmitted from engine to frontend each 5
seconds per one client (and we can have more of them of course) * FE logic
on Server is in general not awesome
I would expect the statistics to be stored in the database somewhere, that way
we can pull them for reports and things of that nature (like charts).
Obviously we wouldn't do 100 round trips for the image, we would generate a
single image sprite that would contain all the images in a single request and
display the appropriate part of the image in the grid.
You are right in general front-end logic is not done on the back-end. However
we must consider if we are really doing front end logic here, or if we are
just displaying some reporting information as part of the grid.
If we are not storing the statistics anywhere, then this is a terrible plan,
and we should do the logic on the client, but if we are, it is something to
consider.
> > == From L&F point of view ==
> > - would look pretty much like the one proposed by Malini:
> > http://style.org/chartapi/sparklines/
> >
> > == From data point of view ==
> > - do not do any averages on VDSM side (since it already does them for
> > CPU
> > and network and the memory is stable enough) - do not do any averages on
> > engine side (since would have to be done for each FE separately and
> > stored
> > in session which is a bit overcomplicated. If the user wants to see more
> > accurate data, he/she can change the refresh rate) - do not do any
> > interpolation since the data are already averaged and we will show only
> > new
> > ones
> >
> > @Malini,Einav,Eldan,Michal what do you think?
> >
> > Tomas
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > > From: "Michal Skrivanek" <michal.skrivanek(a)redhat.com>
> > > To: "Tomas Jelinek" <tjelinek(a)redhat.com>, "Dan
Kenigsberg"
> > > <danken(a)redhat.com> Cc: "Malini Rao"
<mrao(a)redhat.com>, "Eldan
> > > Hildesheim" <ehildesh(a)redhat.com>, engine-devel(a)ovirt.org,
"info"
> > > <info(a)eldanet.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:49:12 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] [UX] how to design a bar/line chart?
> > >
> > > On Nov 12, 2013, at 11:18 , Tomas Jelinek <tjelinek(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
> > > > So we have looked into the resource usage sampling with mbetak and
> > > > also
> > > > with Michal and it seems that
> > > >
> > > > for the CPU usage:
> > > > - VDSM polls libvirt to get the runtime statistics of the VM
> > > > regularly.
> > > > The
> > > > pooling interval is configured in
> > > >
> > > > vdsm.conf as vm_sample_cpu_interval and by default it is 15 seconds
> > > >
> > > > - libvirt returns something we than use to calculate the average CPU
> > > > usage
> > > > since the last poll
> > > > - engine polls VDSM once in 15 seconds to get the current statistics
> > > > (the
> > > > same 15 seconds is just a coincidence and we can not count on this)
> > > > - than the frontend polls the engine each 5-60 seconds (depends on
> > > > the
> > > > refresh rate) and gets the current value from the engine
> > > > - the user can press the refresh button anytime to poll the engine
> > > > again
> > > >
> > > > For network usage:
> > > > - it should be pretty much the same as the CPU just the VDSM poll
> > > > interval
> > > > is configured as vm_sample_net_interval and by default it is 5
> > > > seconds
> > >
> > > Dan, since we poll only every 15s and cpu info is 15s wouldn't it
make
> > > sense to change the default for network monitoring to 15s as well?
> > > it's 2
> > > libvirt rounds trip for nothing really. Or does it serve some other
> > > purpose?>
> > >
> > > > For memory usage:
> > > > - guest agent sends a message to VDSM with the memory usage
> > > > regularly.
> > > > The
> > > > interval is set in ovirt-guest-agent.conf as heart_beat_rate
> > > >
> > > > and by default it is 5 seconds
> > > >
> > > > - the actual value sent by ovirt-guest-agent is the actual value at
> > > > the
> > > > time when the value is sent (e.g. for Linux taken from "cat
> > > > /proc/meminfo")
> > > > - vdsm is doing no statistics on top of it, just remembers the last
> > > > value
> > > > taken from ovirt-guest-agent
> > >
> > > which is fine, it doesn't change so often and there are typically no
> > > spikes
> > >
> > > > - the rest of the poling is the same
> > > >
> > > > So, visualizing this in some usable form will be quite challenging
> > > > ;)
> > > > I see the following problems:
> > > > - if the VDSM gets the data faster than the engine polls it (and
> > > > most
> > > > often
> > > > it does) than the info in between will be lost.
> > > >
> > > > The question is how big this problem is and if it is worth solving
> > > > (I
> > > > would say not for CPU which are averages but maybe yes for memory).
> > > > Other question if there is a way how to solve it since the VDSM can
> > > > be
> > > > polled by anyone and it does not really care if someone polls it...
> > > > (Michal?)
> > >
> > > I'd say not solve it and try to keep it in sync on vdsm side with
> > > engine
> > > poll, to save unnecessary libvirt calls
> > >
> > > > - we can lost some data between frontend<->engine if the
polling
> > > > interval
> > > > of the FE is slower than the polling interval of the engine. This is
> > > > something
> > > >
> > > > not really worth solving because the user can set this according to
> > > > the
> > > > level of detail he/she wants
> > >
> > > well, you should average the values in engine in case the FE refresh
> > > is
> > >
> > > >15s. Or add (refresh/15) of them
> >
> > It is not that simple since you can have more frontends and not sure if
> > it
> > would be a good idea to put this into the session...
> >
> > > > - since we will get new info once in ~15 seconds, and the polling of
> > > > the
> > > > FE
> > > > is by default 5 seconds, do we want to do some interpolation? Or
> > > > just
> > > > show
> > > > the
> > > >
> > > > same value 3 times? Or be smart and show only changed values? (this
> > > > is
> > > > tricky since there is a chance that it did not change - e.g.
> > > > constant
> > > > 0
> > > > mem usage if you have no guest agent)
> > > >
> > > > - What if the user starts clicking to the refresh button? Do we want
> > > > to
> > > > keep appending the same value if the engine still has only the old
> > > > ones?
> > >
> > > just add a new line/point every 15s should be ok
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > michal
> > >
> > > > Tomas
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >
> > > >> From: "Tomas Jelinek" <tjelinek(a)redhat.com>
> > > >> To: "Malini Rao" <mrao(a)redhat.com>
> > > >> Cc: "Eldan Hildesheim" <ehildesh(a)redhat.com>,
> > > >> engine-devel(a)ovirt.org,
> > > >> "info" <info(a)eldanet.com>
> > > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:23:09 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] [UX] how to design a bar/line chart?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >>
> > > >>> From: "Malini Rao" <mrao(a)redhat.com>
> > > >>> To: "Eldan Hildesheim" <ehildesh(a)redhat.com>
> > > >>> Cc: "Tomas Jelinek" <tjelinek(a)redhat.com>,
"info"
> > > >>> <info(a)eldanet.com>,
> > > >>> engine-devel(a)ovirt.org
> > > >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:15:50 PM
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] [UX] how to design a bar/line
chart?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Is this going to fit in a row of a table? Or are we talking
of a
> > > >>> more
> > > >>> detailed view?
> > > >>
> > > >> it should fit into one cell of the table
> > > >>
> > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >>> From: "Eldan Hildesheim"
<ehildesh(a)redhat.com>
> > > >>> To: "Tomas Jelinek" <tjelinek(a)redhat.com>
> > > >>> Cc: "info" <info(a)eldanet.com>,
engine-devel(a)ovirt.org
> > > >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 8:01:07 AM
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] [UX] how to design a bar/line
chart?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Throw this gif into a browser. This is more or less what I
> > > >>> thought.
> > > >>> Eldan
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >>> From: "Tomas Jelinek" <tjelinek(a)redhat.com>
> > > >>> To: "Eldan Hildesheim" <ehildesh(a)redhat.com>
> > > >>> Cc: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen(a)redhat.com>,
"info" <info(a)eldanet.com>,
> > > >>> engine-devel(a)ovirt.org
> > > >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:03:15 PM
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] [UX] how to design a bar/line
chart?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> From: "Eldan Hildesheim"
<ehildesh(a)redhat.com>
> > > >>>> To: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen(a)redhat.com>
> > > >>>> Cc: "info" <info(a)eldanet.com>,
engine-devel(a)ovirt.org
> > > >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:56:57 PM
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] [UX] how to design a bar/line
chart?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Hello all,
> > > >>>> We use to have a good solution in the period pre-WPF.
> > > >>>> A line chart (used to be in flash) that works like a
plotter:
> > > >>>> The Line Bar (not bar) had a small animation that shifted
all the
> > > >>>> bar
> > > >>>> to
> > > >>>> the
> > > >>>> left.
> > > >>>> When a new data arrived it just added a new line (to the
right)
> > > >>>> and
> > > >>>> as I
> > > >>>> said
> > > >>>> before, in parallel it always shifted slowly to the
left.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Any chance you still have some screenshot or mockup so I can
> > > >>> imagine
> > > >>> it
> > > >>> better?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> The animation gives the impression that data is streaming
and
> > > >>>> when a
> > > >>>> real
> > > >>>> new
> > > >>>> data arrives the user gets it very fast.
> > > >>>> We have to sync between the animation and the rate of the
arrival
> > > >>>> of
> > > >>>> the
> > > >>>> data
> > > >>>> but this is easy.
> > > >>>> If we can't find a good framework it can be created
from scratch
> > > >>>> with
> > > >>>> JS,
> > > >>>> svg
> > > >>>> or canvas.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> We need to be careful about what we will use. oVirt is
supposed to
> > > >>> work
> > > >>> on
> > > >>> FF
> > > >>> 17 [1]
> > > >>> but the HTML5 canvas works only since FF23 [2].
> > > >>>
> > > >>> @Einav:
> > > >>> Is there a chance that we could start support only FF23+ and
IE9+
> > > >>> (this
> > > >>> one
> > > >>> is already OK)
> > > >>> because of this feature?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Now regarding its position:
> > > >>>> Rollover is good but not enough, we should somehow put it
in the
> > > >>>> lower
> > > >>>> panel
> > > >>>> under general or even another tab - (live data).
> > > >>>
> > > >>> This is a bit different requirement. The point of this
specific is
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> give
> > > >>> a
> > > >>> better
> > > >>> overview in the main tab. If it will be done we can decide if
we
> > > >>> want
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> give
> > > >>> more
> > > >>> details in sub tabs.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> We could later on have a (live data Tab) in other places
as well
> > > >>>> like
> > > >>>> host,
> > > >>>> cluster...
> > > >>>> Eldan
> > > >>>
> > > >>> [1]: http://www.ovirt.org/Download
> > > >>> [2]: http://caniuse.com/#feat=canvas
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >>>> From: "Einav Cohen" <ecohen(a)redhat.com>
> > > >>>> To: "Ewoud Kohl van Wijngaarden"
> > > >>>> <ewoud+ovirt(a)kohlvanwijngaarden.nl>
> > > >>>> Cc: "Alexander Wels" <awels(a)redhat.com>,
"Eldan Hildesheim"
> > > >>>> <ehildesh(a)redhat.com>, engine-devel(a)ovirt.org,
"info"
> > > >>>> <info(a)eldanet.com>
> > > >>>> Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 10:50:10 PM
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Engine-devel] [UX] how to design a bar/line
chart?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >>>>> From: "Ewoud Kohl van Wijngaarden"
> > > >>>>> <ewoud+ovirt(a)kohlvanwijngaarden.nl>
> > > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2013 11:44:07 AM
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 11:45:36AM -0500, Alexander
Wels wrote:
> > > >>>>>> I suppose we need to answer a few questions
before we can go
> > > >>>>>> into
> > > >>>>>> which
> > > >>>>>> library is better:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> 1. Do we mind sending data over to Google so
Google can render
> > > >>>>>> images
> > > >>>>>> for
> > > >>>>>> us.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I'd say no. Even from a reliability point of view
since users
> > > >>>>> may
> > > >>>>> have
> > > >>>>> systems that aren't connected to the internet.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> +1
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> (Though I don't know how well oVirt handles this
currently.)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> AFAIK - oVirt is handling it ('it' == having no
internet
> > > >>>> connection)
> > > >>>> well.
> > > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>> Engine-devel mailing list
> > > >>>> Engine-devel(a)ovirt.org
> > > >>>> http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/engine-devel
> > > >>>
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Engine-devel mailing list
> > > >>> Engine-devel(a)ovirt.org
> > > >>> http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/engine-devel
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
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> >
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