[Engine-devel] VDSM tasks, the future
Because I started hinting about how VDSM tasks are going to look going forward I thought it's better I'll just write everything in an email so we can talk about it in context. This is not set in stone and I'm still debating things myself but it's very close to being done. - Everything is asynchronous. The nature of message based communication is that you can't have synchronous operations. This is not really debatable because it's just how TCP\AMQP\<messaging> works. - Task IDs will be decided by the caller. This is how json-rpc works and also makes sense because no the engine can track the task without needing to have a stage where we give it the task ID back. IDs are reusable as long as no one else is using them at the time so they can be used for synchronizing operations between clients (making sure a command is only executed once on a specific host without locking). - Tasks are transient If VDSM restarts it forgets all the task information. There are 2 ways to have persistent tasks: 1. The task creates an object that you can continue work on in VDSM. The new storage does that by the fact that copyImage() returns one the target volume has been created but before the data has been fully copied. From that moment on the stat of the copy can be queried from any host using getImageStatus() and the specific copy operation can be queried with getTaskStatus() on the host performing it. After VDSM crashes, depending on policy, either VDSM will create a new task to continue the copy or someone else will send a command to continue the operation and that will be a new task. 2. VDSM tasks just start other operations track-able not through the task interface. For example Gluster. gluster.startVolumeRebalance() will return once it has been registered with Gluster. glster.getOperationStatuses() will return the state of the operation from any host. Each call is a task in itself. - No task tags. They are silly and the caller can mangle whatever in the task ID if he really wants to tag tasks. - No explicit recovery stage. VDSM will be crash-only, there should be efforts to make everything crash-safe. If that is problematic, in case of networking, VDSM will recover on start without having a task for it. - No clean Task: Tasks can be started by any number of hosts this means that there is no way to own all tasks. There could be cases where VDSM starts tasks on it's own and thus they have no owner at all. The caller needs to continually track the state of VDSM. We will have brodcasted events to mitigate polling. - No revert Impossible to implement safely. - No SPM\HSM tasks SPM\SDM is no longer necessary for all domain types (only for type). What used to be SPM tasks, or tasks that persist and can be restarted on other hosts is talked about in previous bullet points.
On Tue, Dec 04, 2012 at 10:35:01AM -0500, Saggi Mizrahi wrote:
Because I started hinting about how VDSM tasks are going to look going forward I thought it's better I'll just write everything in an email so we can talk about it in context. This is not set in stone and I'm still debating things myself but it's very close to being done.
Don't debate them yourself, debate them here! Even better, propose your idea in schema form to show how a command might work exactly.
- Everything is asynchronous. The nature of message based communication is that you can't have synchronous operations. This is not really debatable because it's just how TCP\AMQP\<messaging> works.
Can you show how a traditionally synchronous command might work? Let's take Host.getVmList as an example.
- Task IDs will be decided by the caller. This is how json-rpc works and also makes sense because no the engine can track the task without needing to have a stage where we give it the task ID back. IDs are reusable as long as no one else is using them at the time so they can be used for synchronizing operations between clients (making sure a command is only executed once on a specific host without locking).
- Tasks are transient If VDSM restarts it forgets all the task information. There are 2 ways to have persistent tasks: 1. The task creates an object that you can continue work on in VDSM. The new storage does that by the fact that copyImage() returns one the target volume has been created but before the data has been fully copied. From that moment on the stat of the copy can be queried from any host using getImageStatus() and the specific copy operation can be queried with getTaskStatus() on the host performing it. After VDSM crashes, depending on policy, either VDSM will create a new task to continue the copy or someone else will send a command to continue the operation and that will be a new task. 2. VDSM tasks just start other operations track-able not through the task interface. For example Gluster. gluster.startVolumeRebalance() will return once it has been registered with Gluster. glster.getOperationStatuses() will return the state of the operation from any host. Each call is a task in itself.
I worry about this approach because every command has a different semantic for checking progress. For migration, we have to check VM status on the src and dest hosts. For image copy we need to use a special status call on the dest image. It would be nice if there was a unified method for checking on an operation. Maybe that can be completion events. Client: vdsm: ------- ----- Image.copy(...) --> <-- Operation Started Wait for event ... <-- Event: Operation <id> done <code> For an early error: Client: vdsm: ------- ----- Image.copy(...) --> <-- Error: <code>
- No task tags. They are silly and the caller can mangle whatever in the task ID if he really wants to tag tasks.
Yes. Agreed.
- No explicit recovery stage. VDSM will be crash-only, there should be efforts to make everything crash-safe. If that is problematic, in case of networking, VDSM will recover on start without having a task for it.
How does this work in practice for something like creating a new image from a template?
- No clean Task: Tasks can be started by any number of hosts this means that there is no way to own all tasks. There could be cases where VDSM starts tasks on it's own and thus they have no owner at all. The caller needs to continually track the state of VDSM. We will have brodcasted events to mitigate polling.
If a disconnected client might have missed a completion event, it will need to check state. This means each async operation that changes state must document a proceedure for checking progress of a potentially ongoing operation. For Image.copy, that process would be to lookup the new image and check its state.
- No revert Impossible to implement safely.
How do the engine folks feel about this? I am ok with it :)
- No SPM\HSM tasks SPM\SDM is no longer necessary for all domain types (only for type). What used to be SPM tasks, or tasks that persist and can be restarted on other hosts is talked about in previous bullet points.
A nice simplification. -- Adam Litke <agl@us.ibm.com> IBM Linux Technology Center
As the only subsystem to use asynchronous tasks until now is the storage subsystem I suggest going over how I suggest tackling task creation, task stop, task remove and task recovery. Other subsystem can create similar mechanisms depending on their needs. There is no way of avoiding it, different types of tasks need different ways of tracking\recovering from them. network should always auto-recover because it can't get a "please fix" command if the network is down. Storage on the other hand should never start operations on it's own because it might take up valuable resources from the host. Tasks that need to be tracked on a single host, 2 hosts, or the entire cluster need to have their own APIs. VM configuration never persist across reboots, networking sometimes persists and storage always persists. This means that recovery procedures (from the managers point of view) need to be vastly different. Add policy, resource allocation, and error flows you see that VDSM doesn't have nearly as much information to deal with the tasks. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Litke" <agl@us.ibm.com> To: "Saggi Mizrahi" <smizrahi@redhat.com> Cc: "VDSM Project Development" <vdsm-devel@lists.fedorahosted.org>, "engine-devel" <engine-devel@ovirt.org>, "Ayal Baron" <abaron@redhat.com>, "Barak Azulay" <bazulay@redhat.com>, "Shireesh Anjal" <sanjal@redhat.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:50:28 PM Subject: Re: VDSM tasks, the future
On Tue, Dec 04, 2012 at 10:35:01AM -0500, Saggi Mizrahi wrote:
Because I started hinting about how VDSM tasks are going to look going forward I thought it's better I'll just write everything in an email so we can talk about it in context. This is not set in stone and I'm still debating things myself but it's very close to being done.
Don't debate them yourself, debate them here! Even better, propose your idea in schema form to show how a command might work exactly. I don't like throwing ideas in the air
- Everything is asynchronous. The nature of message based communication is that you can't have synchronous operations. This is not really debatable because it's just how TCP\AMQP\<messaging> works.
Can you show how a traditionally synchronous command might work? Let's take Host.getVmList as an example. The same as it works today, it's all a matter of how you wrap the transport layer. You will send a json-rpc request and wait for a response with the same id.
As for the bindings, there are a lot of way we can tackle that. Always wait for the response and simulate synchronous behavior. Make every method return an object to track the task. task = host.getVmList() if not task.wait(1): task.cancel() else: res = task.result() Have it both ways (it's auto generated anyway) and have list = host.getVmList() task = host.getVmList_async() Have a high level and low level interfaces. host = host() host.connect("tcp://host:3233") req = host.sendRequest("123213", "getVmList", []) if not req.wait(1): .... shost = SynchHost(host) shost.getVmList() # Actually wraps a request object ahost = AsyncHost(host) task = getVmList() # Actually wraps a request object
- Task IDs will be decided by the caller. This is how json-rpc works and also makes sense because no the engine can track the task without needing to have a stage where we give it the task ID back. IDs are reusable as long as no one else is using them at the time so they can be used for synchronizing operations between clients (making sure a command is only executed once on a specific host without locking).
- Tasks are transient If VDSM restarts it forgets all the task information. There are 2 ways to have persistent tasks: 1. The task creates an object that you can continue work on in VDSM. The new storage does that by the fact that copyImage() returns one the target volume has been created but before the data has been fully copied. From that moment on the stat of the copy can be queried from any host using getImageStatus() and the specific copy operation can be queried with getTaskStatus() on the host performing it. After VDSM crashes, depending on policy, either VDSM will create a new task to continue the copy or someone else will send a command to continue the operation and that will be a new task. 2. VDSM tasks just start other operations track-able not through the task interface. For example Gluster. gluster.startVolumeRebalance() will return once it has been registered with Gluster. glster.getOperationStatuses() will return the state of the operation from any host. Each call is a task in itself.
I worry about this approach because every command has a different semantic for checking progress. For migration, we have to check VM status on the src and dest hosts. For image copy we need to use a special status call on the dest image. It would be nice if there was a unified method for checking on an operation. Maybe that can be completion events.
Client: vdsm: ------- -----
Image.copy(...) --> <-- Operation Started Wait for event ... <-- Event: Operation <id> done <code>
For an early error:
Client: vdsm: ------- -----
Image.copy(...) --> <-- Error: <code>
The thing is that a lot of things need a different way of tracking their progress. Storage have completely different semantics from network or VM operations.
- No task tags. They are silly and the caller can mangle whatever in the task ID if he really wants to tag tasks.
Yes. Agreed.
- No explicit recovery stage. VDSM will be crash-only, there should be efforts to make everything crash-safe. If that is problematic, in case of networking, VDSM will recover on start without having a task for it.
How does this work in practice for something like creating a new image from a template?
- No clean Task: Tasks can be started by any number of hosts this means that there is no way to own all tasks. There could be cases where VDSM starts tasks on it's own and thus they have no owner at all. The caller needs to continually track the state of VDSM. We will have brodcasted events to mitigate polling.
If a disconnected client might have missed a completion event, it will need to check state. This means each async operation that changes state must document a proceedure for checking progress of a potentially ongoing operation. For Image.copy, that process would be to lookup the new image and check its state.
- No revert Impossible to implement safely.
How do the engine folks feel about this? I am ok with it :) I don't care, unless they find a way to change they way logic works they can't have it. The whole concept of recovery (as it is defined now) doesn't work in an HA cluster.
- No SPM\HSM tasks SPM\SDM is no longer necessary for all domain types (only for type). What used to be SPM tasks, or tasks that persist and can be restarted on other hosts is talked about in previous bullet points.
A nice simplification.
-- Adam Litke <agl@us.ibm.com> IBM Linux Technology Center
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070307080901000202010002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/05/2012 12:20 AM, Saggi Mizrahi wrote:
As the only subsystem to use asynchronous tasks until now is the storage subsystem I suggest going over how I suggest tackling task creation, task stop, task remove and task recovery. Other subsystem can create similar mechanisms depending on their needs.
There is no way of avoiding it, different types of tasks need different ways of tracking\recovering from them. network should always auto-recover because it can't get a "please fix" command if the network is down. Storage on the other hand should never start operations on it's own because it might take up valuable resources from the host. Tasks that need to be tracked on a single host, 2 hosts, or the entire cluster need to have their own APIs. VM configuration never persist across reboots, networking sometimes persists and storage always persists. This means that recovery procedures (from the managers point of view) need to be vastly different. Add policy, resource allocation, and error flows you see that VDSM doesn't have nearly as much information to deal with the tasks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Litke" <agl@us.ibm.com> To: "Saggi Mizrahi" <smizrahi@redhat.com> Cc: "VDSM Project Development" <vdsm-devel@lists.fedorahosted.org>, "engine-devel" <engine-devel@ovirt.org>, "Ayal Baron" <abaron@redhat.com>, "Barak Azulay" <bazulay@redhat.com>, "Shireesh Anjal" <sanjal@redhat.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:50:28 PM Subject: Re: VDSM tasks, the future
On Tue, Dec 04, 2012 at 10:35:01AM -0500, Saggi Mizrahi wrote:
Because I started hinting about how VDSM tasks are going to look going forward I thought it's better I'll just write everything in an email so we can talk about it in context. This is not set in stone and I'm still debating things myself but it's very close to being done. Don't debate them yourself, debate them here! Even better, propose your idea in schema form to show how a command might work exactly. I don't like throwing ideas in the air It can be much easier to understand the flow of a task in vdsm and outside vdsm by a small schema, mainly for the each task's states. To define the flow of a task you can separate between type of tasks (network, storage, vms, or else), we should have task's states that clarify if the task can be recovered or not, can be canceled or not and inc..
Canceling\Aborting\Reverting states should be more clarified and not every state can lead to all types of states. I tries to figure how task flow works today in vdsm, and this is what I've got - http://wiki.ovirt.org/Vdsm_tasks
- Everything is asynchronous. The nature of message based communication is that you can't have synchronous operations. This is not really debatable because it's just how TCP\AMQP\<messaging> works. Can you show how a traditionally synchronous command might work? Let's take Host.getVmList as an example. The same as it works today, it's all a matter of how you wrap the transport layer. You will send a json-rpc request and wait for a response with the same id.
As for the bindings, there are a lot of way we can tackle that. Always wait for the response and simulate synchronous behavior. Make every method return an object to track the task. task = host.getVmList() if not task.wait(1): task.cancel() else: res = task.result() It looks like traditional timeout.. why not to split blocking actions and non-blocking actions, non-blocking action will supply callback function to return to if the task fails or success. for example:
createAsyncTask(host.getVmList, params, timeout=30, callbackGetVmList) Instead of using the dispatcher? Do you want to keep the dispatcher concept?
Have it both ways (it's auto generated anyway) and have list = host.getVmList() task = host.getVmList_async()
Have a high level and low level interfaces. host = host() host.connect("tcp://host:3233") req = host.sendRequest("123213", "getVmList", []) if not req.wait(1): ....
shost = SynchHost(host) shost.getVmList() # Actually wraps a request object ahost = AsyncHost(host) task = getVmList() # Actually wraps a request object
- Task IDs will be decided by the caller. This is how json-rpc works and also makes sense because no the engine can track the task without needing to have a stage where we give it the task ID back. IDs are reusable as long as no one else is using them at the time so they can be used for synchronizing operations between clients (making sure a command is only executed once on a specific host without locking).
- Tasks are transient If VDSM restarts it forgets all the task information. There are 2 ways to have persistent tasks: 1. The task creates an object that you can continue work on in VDSM. The new storage does that by the fact that copyImage() returns one the target volume has been created but before the data has been fully copied. From that moment on the stat of the copy can be queried from any host using getImageStatus() and the specific copy operation can be queried with getTaskStatus() on the host performing it. After VDSM crashes, depending on policy, either VDSM will create a new task to continue the copy or someone else will send a command to continue the operation and that will be a new task. 2. VDSM tasks just start other operations track-able not through the task interface. For example Gluster. gluster.startVolumeRebalance() will return once it has been registered with Gluster. glster.getOperationStatuses() will return the state of the operation from any host. Each call is a task in itself. I worry about this approach because every command has a different semantic for checking progress. For migration, we have to check VM status on the src and dest hosts. For image copy we need to use a special status call on the dest image. It would be nice if there was a unified method for checking on an operation. Maybe that can be completion events.
Client: vdsm: ------- -----
Image.copy(...) --> <-- Operation Started Wait for event ... <-- Event: Operation <id> done <code>
For an early error:
Client: vdsm: ------- -----
Image.copy(...) --> <-- Error: <code>
The thing is that a lot of things need a different way of tracking their progress. Storage have completely different semantics from network or VM operations. This is the reason why we can use the implementation of task as something generic for all processes that we have. of course things need different ways of tracking their progress... That's why we need to use task's states with meaning, and split storageTaskStates and networkTaskStates that inherit of TaskStates and add their parts as in the new bootstrap implementation. Also we can add hooks for each state as alonbl did in his otopi code (not sure if we need that)
Like for instance: general states can be - starting, started, finishing, finished, and each specific implementation adds middle states. like waitForResource, processing, recovering and inc.. for each one you can add levels (pre state, post state) that can add more flexibility. That way Task Object will be a general way to implement specific process, you will have a NetworkTask and StorageTask and the infrastructure will be the interface and implementation of the generic parts. So here how vdsm can work that way: client: vsdm: -------- --------- image.copy() ---> copyImage::starting (same starting code - keeping the id, and move forward to next state) copyImage::started (waiting to recovery file that task is started) copyImage::part1 (whatever you want to do) copyImage::part2 (whatever you want to do) copyImage::part3 (whatever you want to do) -- for each process the programmers will add their states as they want in a sequence flow result <------ copyImage::finishing (send back to client a success and clean recovery file) copyImage::finished (sign task id as succeeded) If somewhere in the middle an error occurred, it easier to start over and remember where we were. The problem with that is that we need to modify the current implementation for each process, and I'm not sure if we want to get there.. but if we do, it won't be so hard. We can split the logic of each process to define a logic of each state, and then arranging the states flow for each process and clarify what can be recovered or not, what signs corruption or errors, and how the returned result can point of the current process status (\state)
- No task tags. They are silly and the caller can mangle whatever in the task ID if he really wants to tag tasks. Yes. Agreed.
- No explicit recovery stage. VDSM will be crash-only, there should be efforts to make everything crash-safe. If that is problematic, in case of networking, VDSM will recover on start without having a task for it. How does this work in practice for something like creating a new image from a template?
- No clean Task: Tasks can be started by any number of hosts this means that there is no way to own all tasks. There could be cases where VDSM starts tasks on it's own and thus they have no owner at all. The caller needs to continually track the state of VDSM. We will have brodcasted events to mitigate polling. If a disconnected client might have missed a completion event, it will need to check state. This means each async operation that changes state must document a proceedure for checking progress of a potentially ongoing operation. For Image.copy, that process would be to lookup the new image and check its state.
- No revert Impossible to implement safely. How do the engine folks feel about this? I am ok with it :) I don't care, unless they find a way to change they way logic works they can't have it. The whole concept of recovery (as it is defined now) doesn't work in an HA cluster. - No SPM\HSM tasks SPM\SDM is no longer necessary for all domain types (only for type). What used to be SPM tasks, or tasks that persist and can be restarted on other hosts is talked about in previous bullet points.
A nice simplification.
-- Adam Litke <agl@us.ibm.com> IBM Linux Technology Center
_______________________________________________ vdsm-devel mailing list vdsm-devel@lists.fedorahosted.org https://lists.fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/vdsm-devel
-- Yaniv Bronhaim. RedHat, Israel 09-7692289 054-7744187 --------------070307080901000202010002 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/05/2012 12:20 AM, Saggi Mizrahi wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote cite="mid:170195820.13932156.1354659610794.JavaMail.root@redhat.com" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">As the only subsystem to use asynchronous tasks until now is the storage subsystem I suggest going over how I suggest tackling task creation, task stop, task remove and task recovery. Other subsystem can create similar mechanisms depending on their needs. There is no way of avoiding it, different types of tasks need different ways of tracking\recovering from them. network should always auto-recover because it can't get a "please fix" command if the network is down. Storage on the other hand should never start operations on it's own because it might take up valuable resources from the host. Tasks that need to be tracked on a single host, 2 hosts, or the entire cluster need to have their own APIs. VM configuration never persist across reboots, networking sometimes persists and storage always persists. This means that recovery procedures (from the managers point of view) need to be vastly different. Add policy, resource allocation, and error flows you see that VDSM doesn't have nearly as much information to deal with the tasks. ----- Original Message ----- </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">From: "Adam Litke" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:agl@us.ibm.com"><agl@us.ibm.com></a> To: "Saggi Mizrahi" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:smizrahi@redhat.com"><smizrahi@redhat.com></a> Cc: "VDSM Project Development" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vdsm-devel@lists.fedorahosted.org"><vdsm-devel@lists.fedorahosted.org></a>, "engine-devel" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:engine-devel@ovirt.org"><engine-devel@ovirt.org></a>, "Ayal Baron" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:abaron@redhat.com"><abaron@redhat.com></a>, "Barak Azulay" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bazulay@redhat.com"><bazulay@redhat.com></a>, "Shireesh Anjal" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sanjal@redhat.com"><sanjal@redhat.com></a> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:50:28 PM Subject: Re: VDSM tasks, the future On Tue, Dec 04, 2012 at 10:35:01AM -0500, Saggi Mizrahi wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Because I started hinting about how VDSM tasks are going to look going forward I thought it's better I'll just write everything in an email so we can talk about it in context. This is not set in stone and I'm still debating things myself but it's very close to being done. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> Don't debate them yourself, debate them here! Even better, propose your idea in schema form to show how a command might work exactly. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">I don't like throwing ideas in the air</pre> </blockquote> It can be much easier to understand the flow of a task in vdsm and outside vdsm by a small schema, mainly for the each task's states. <br> To define the flow of a task you can separate between type of tasks (network, storage, vms, or else), we should have task's states that clarify if the task can be recovered or not, can be canceled or not and inc..<br> <br> Canceling\Aborting\Reverting states should be more clarified and not every state can lead to all types of states.<br> I tries to figure how task flow works today in vdsm, and this is what I've got - <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"> <a href="http://wiki.ovirt.org/Vdsm_tasks">http://wiki.ovirt.org/Vdsm_tasks</a><br> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"> <blockquote cite="mid:170195820.13932156.1354659610794.JavaMail.root@redhat.com" type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">- Everything is asynchronous. The nature of message based communication is that you can't have synchronous operations. This is not really debatable because it's just how TCP\AMQP\<messaging> works. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> Can you show how a traditionally synchronous command might work? Let's take Host.getVmList as an example. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">The same as it works today, it's all a matter of how you wrap the transport layer. You will send a json-rpc request and wait for a response with the same id. As for the bindings, there are a lot of way we can tackle that. Always wait for the response and simulate synchronous behavior. Make every method return an object to track the task. task = host.getVmList() if not task.wait(1): task.cancel() else: res = task.result() </pre> </blockquote> It looks like traditional timeout.. why not to split blocking actions and non-blocking actions, non-blocking action will supply callback function to return to if the task fails or success. for example:<br> <br> createAsyncTask(host.getVmList, params, timeout=30, callbackGetVmList)<br> <br> Instead of using the dispatcher? Do you want to keep the dispatcher concept?<br> <br> <blockquote cite="mid:170195820.13932156.1354659610794.JavaMail.root@redhat.com" type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> Have it both ways (it's auto generated anyway) and have list = host.getVmList() task = host.getVmList_async() Have a high level and low level interfaces. host = host() host.connect("tcp://host:3233") req = host.sendRequest("123213", "getVmList", []) if not req.wait(1): .... shost = SynchHost(host) shost.getVmList() # Actually wraps a request object ahost = AsyncHost(host) task = getVmList() # Actually wraps a request object </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">- Task IDs will be decided by the caller. This is how json-rpc works and also makes sense because no the engine can track the task without needing to have a stage where we give it the task ID back. IDs are reusable as long as no one else is using them at the time so they can be used for synchronizing operations between clients (making sure a command is only executed once on a specific host without locking). - Tasks are transient If VDSM restarts it forgets all the task information. There are 2 ways to have persistent tasks: 1. The task creates an object that you can continue work on in VDSM. The new storage does that by the fact that copyImage() returns one the target volume has been created but before the data has been fully copied. From that moment on the stat of the copy can be queried from any host using getImageStatus() and the specific copy operation can be queried with getTaskStatus() on the host performing it. After VDSM crashes, depending on policy, either VDSM will create a new task to continue the copy or someone else will send a command to continue the operation and that will be a new task. 2. VDSM tasks just start other operations track-able not through the task interface. For example Gluster. gluster.startVolumeRebalance() will return once it has been registered with Gluster. glster.getOperationStatuses() will return the state of the operation from any host. Each call is a task in itself. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> I worry about this approach because every command has a different semantic for checking progress. For migration, we have to check VM status on the src and dest hosts. For image copy we need to use a special status call on the dest image. It would be nice if there was a unified method for checking on an operation. Maybe that can be completion events. Client: vdsm: ------- ----- Image.copy(...) --> <-- Operation Started Wait for event ... <-- Event: Operation <id> done <code> For an early error: Client: vdsm: ------- ----- Image.copy(...) --> <-- Error: <code> </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">The thing is that a lot of things need a different way of tracking their progress. Storage have completely different semantics from network or VM operations.</pre> </blockquote> This is the reason why we can use the implementation of task as something generic for all processes that we have.<br> of course things need different ways of tracking their progress... That's why we need to use task's states with meaning, and split storageTaskStates and networkTaskStates that inherit of TaskStates and add their parts as in the new bootstrap implementation.<br> Also we can add hooks for each state as alonbl did in his otopi code (not sure if we need that)<br> <br> Like for instance: general states can be - starting, started, finishing, finished, and each specific implementation adds middle states. like waitForResource, processing, recovering and inc.. <br> for each one you can add levels (pre state, post state) that can add more flexibility.<br> <br> That way Task Object will be a general way to implement specific process, you will have a NetworkTask and StorageTask and the infrastructure will be the interface and implementation of the generic parts.<br> <br> So here how vdsm can work that way:<br> client: vsdm:<br> -------- ---------<br> image.copy() ---> copyImage::starting (same starting code - keeping the id, and move forward to next state)<br> copyImage::started (waiting to recovery file that task is started)<br> copyImage::part1 (whatever you want to do)<br> copyImage::part2 (whatever you want to do)<br> copyImage::part3 (whatever you want to do) -- for each process the programmers will add their states as they want in a sequence flow<br> result <------ copyImage::finishing (send back to client a success and clean recovery file)<br> copyImage::finished (sign task id as succeeded)<br> <br> If somewhere in the middle an error occurred, it easier to start over and remember where we were.<br> The problem with that is that we need to modify the current implementation for each process, and I'm not sure if we want to get there.. but if we do, it won't be so hard.<br> We can split the logic of each process to define a logic of each state, and then arranging the states flow for each process and clarify what can be recovered or not, what signs corruption or errors, and how the returned result can point of the current process status (\state)<br> <br> <blockquote cite="mid:170195820.13932156.1354659610794.JavaMail.root@redhat.com" type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">- No task tags. They are silly and the caller can mangle whatever in the task ID if he really wants to tag tasks. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> Yes. Agreed. </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">- No explicit recovery stage. VDSM will be crash-only, there should be efforts to make everything crash-safe. If that is problematic, in case of networking, VDSM will recover on start without having a task for it. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> How does this work in practice for something like creating a new image from a template? </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">- No clean Task: Tasks can be started by any number of hosts this means that there is no way to own all tasks. There could be cases where VDSM starts tasks on it's own and thus they have no owner at all. The caller needs to continually track the state of VDSM. We will have brodcasted events to mitigate polling. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> If a disconnected client might have missed a completion event, it will need to check state. This means each async operation that changes state must document a proceedure for checking progress of a potentially ongoing operation. For Image.copy, that process would be to lookup the new image and check its state. </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">- No revert Impossible to implement safely. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> How do the engine folks feel about this? I am ok with it :) </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">I don't care, unless they find a way to change they way logic works they can't have it. The whole concept of recovery (as it is defined now) doesn't work in an HA cluster. </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">- No SPM\HSM tasks SPM\SDM is no longer necessary for all domain types (only for type). What used to be SPM tasks, or tasks that persist and can be restarted on other hosts is talked about in previous bullet points. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">A nice simplification. -- Adam Litke <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:agl@us.ibm.com"><agl@us.ibm.com></a> IBM Linux Technology Center </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________ vdsm-devel mailing list <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vdsm-devel@lists.fedorahosted.org">vdsm-devel@lists.fedorahosted.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/vdsm-devel">https://lists.fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/vdsm-devel</a> </pre> </blockquote> <br> <br> <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- Yaniv Bronhaim. RedHat, Israel 09-7692289 054-7744187</pre> </body> </html> --------------070307080901000202010002--
I'm sorry but your email client messed up the formatting and I can't figure out what are you comments. Could you please use text only emails. ----- Original Message -----
From: "ybronhei" <ybronhei@redhat.com> To: "Saggi Mizrahi" <smizrahi@redhat.com> Cc: "Adam Litke" <agl@us.ibm.com>, "engine-devel" <engine-devel@ovirt.org>, "VDSM Project Development" <vdsm-devel@lists.fedorahosted.org> Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 8:37:23 AM Subject: Re: [vdsm] VDSM tasks, the future
On 12/05/2012 12:20 AM, Saggi Mizrahi wrote:
As the only subsystem to use asynchronous tasks until now is the storage subsystem I suggest going over how I suggest tackling task creation, task stop, task remove and task recovery. Other subsystem can create similar mechanisms depending on their needs.
There is no way of avoiding it, different types of tasks need different ways of tracking\recovering from them. network should always auto-recover because it can't get a "please fix" command if the network is down. Storage on the other hand should never start operations on it's own because it might take up valuable resources from the host. Tasks that need to be tracked on a single host, 2 hosts, or the entire cluster need to have their own APIs. VM configuration never persist across reboots, networking sometimes persists and storage always persists. This means that recovery procedures (from the managers point of view) need to be vastly different. Add policy, resource allocation, and error flows you see that VDSM doesn't have nearly as much information to deal with the tasks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Litke" <agl@us.ibm.com> To: "Saggi Mizrahi" <smizrahi@redhat.com> Cc: "VDSM Project Development" <vdsm-devel@lists.fedorahosted.org> , "engine-devel" <engine-devel@ovirt.org> , "Ayal Baron" <abaron@redhat.com> , "Barak Azulay" <bazulay@redhat.com> , "Shireesh Anjal" <sanjal@redhat.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:50:28 PM Subject: Re: VDSM tasks, the future
On Tue, Dec 04, 2012 at 10:35:01AM -0500, Saggi Mizrahi wrote:
Because I started hinting about how VDSM tasks are going to look going forward I thought it's better I'll just write everything in an email so we can talk about it in context. This is not set in stone and I'm still debating things myself but it's very close to being done. Don't debate them yourself, debate them here! Even better, propose your idea in schema form to show how a command might work exactly. I don't like throwing ideas in the air It can be much easier to understand the flow of a task in vdsm and outside vdsm by a small schema, mainly for the each task's states. To define the flow of a task you can separate between type of tasks (network, storage, vms, or else), we should have task's states that clarify if the task can be recovered or not, can be canceled or not and inc..
Canceling\Aborting\Reverting states should be more clarified and not every state can lead to all types of states. I tries to figure how task flow works today in vdsm, and this is what I've got - http://wiki.ovirt.org/Vdsm_tasks
- Everything is asynchronous. The nature of message based communication is that you can't have synchronous operations. This is not really debatable because it's just how TCP\AMQP\<messaging> works. Can you show how a traditionally synchronous command might work? Let's take Host.getVmList as an example. The same as it works today, it's all a matter of how you wrap the transport layer. You will send a json-rpc request and wait for a response with the same id.
As for the bindings, there are a lot of way we can tackle that. Always wait for the response and simulate synchronous behavior. Make every method return an object to track the task. task = host.getVmList() if not task.wait(1): task.cancel() else: res = task.result() It looks like traditional timeout.. why not to split blocking actions and non-blocking actions, non-blocking action will supply callback function to return to if the task fails or success. for example:
createAsyncTask(host.getVmList, params, timeout=30, callbackGetVmList)
Instead of using the dispatcher? Do you want to keep the dispatcher concept?
Have it both ways (it's auto generated anyway) and have list = host.getVmList() task = host.getVmList_async()
Have a high level and low level interfaces. host = host() host.connect("tcp://host:3233") req = host.sendRequest("123213", "getVmList", []) if not req.wait(1): ....
shost = SynchHost(host) shost.getVmList() # Actually wraps a request object ahost = AsyncHost(host) task = getVmList() # Actually wraps a request object
- Task IDs will be decided by the caller. This is how json-rpc works and also makes sense because no the engine can track the task without needing to have a stage where we give it the task ID back. IDs are reusable as long as no one else is using them at the time so they can be used for synchronizing operations between clients (making sure a command is only executed once on a specific host without locking).
- Tasks are transient If VDSM restarts it forgets all the task information. There are 2 ways to have persistent tasks: 1. The task creates an object that you can continue work on in VDSM. The new storage does that by the fact that copyImage() returns one the target volume has been created but before the data has been fully copied. From that moment on the stat of the copy can be queried from any host using getImageStatus() and the specific copy operation can be queried with getTaskStatus() on the host performing it. After VDSM crashes, depending on policy, either VDSM will create a new task to continue the copy or someone else will send a command to continue the operation and that will be a new task. 2. VDSM tasks just start other operations track-able not through the task interface. For example Gluster. gluster.startVolumeRebalance() will return once it has been registered with Gluster. glster.getOperationStatuses() will return the state of the operation from any host. Each call is a task in itself. I worry about this approach because every command has a different semantic for checking progress. For migration, we have to check VM status on the src and dest hosts. For image copy we need to use a special status call on the dest image. It would be nice if there was a unified method for checking on an operation. Maybe that can be completion events.
Client: vdsm: ------- -----
Image.copy(...) --> <-- Operation Started Wait for event ... <-- Event: Operation <id> done <code>
For an early error:
Client: vdsm: ------- -----
Image.copy(...) --> <-- Error: <code> The thing is that a lot of things need a different way of tracking their progress. Storage have completely different semantics from network or VM operations. This is the reason why we can use the implementation of task as something generic for all processes that we have. of course things need different ways of tracking their progress... That's why we need to use task's states with meaning, and split storageTaskStates and networkTaskStates that inherit of TaskStates and add their parts as in the new bootstrap implementation. Also we can add hooks for each state as alonbl did in his otopi code (not sure if we need that)
Like for instance: general states can be - starting, started, finishing, finished, and each specific implementation adds middle states. like waitForResource, processing, recovering and inc.. for each one you can add levels (pre state, post state) that can add more flexibility.
That way Task Object will be a general way to implement specific process, you will have a NetworkTask and StorageTask and the infrastructure will be the interface and implementation of the generic parts.
So here how vdsm can work that way: client: vsdm: -------- --------- image.copy() ---> copyImage::starting (same starting code - keeping the id, and move forward to next state) copyImage::started (waiting to recovery file that task is started) copyImage::part1 (whatever you want to do) copyImage::part2 (whatever you want to do) copyImage::part3 (whatever you want to do) -- for each process the programmers will add their states as they want in a sequence flow result <------ copyImage::finishing (send back to client a success and clean recovery file) copyImage::finished (sign task id as succeeded)
If somewhere in the middle an error occurred, it easier to start over and remember where we were. The problem with that is that we need to modify the current implementation for each process, and I'm not sure if we want to get there.. but if we do, it won't be so hard. We can split the logic of each process to define a logic of each state, and then arranging the states flow for each process and clarify what can be recovered or not, what signs corruption or errors, and how the returned result can point of the current process status (\state)
- No task tags. They are silly and the caller can mangle whatever in the task ID if he really wants to tag tasks. Yes. Agreed.
- No explicit recovery stage. VDSM will be crash-only, there should be efforts to make everything crash-safe. If that is problematic, in case of networking, VDSM will recover on start without having a task for it. How does this work in practice for something like creating a new image from a template?
- No clean Task: Tasks can be started by any number of hosts this means that there is no way to own all tasks. There could be cases where VDSM starts tasks on it's own and thus they have no owner at all. The caller needs to continually track the state of VDSM. We will have brodcasted events to mitigate polling. If a disconnected client might have missed a completion event, it will need to check state. This means each async operation that changes state must document a proceedure for checking progress of a potentially ongoing operation. For Image.copy, that process would be to lookup the new image and check its state.
- No revert Impossible to implement safely. How do the engine folks feel about this? I am ok with it :) I don't care, unless they find a way to change they way logic works they can't have it. The whole concept of recovery (as it is defined now) doesn't work in an HA cluster.
- No SPM\HSM tasks SPM\SDM is no longer necessary for all domain types (only for type). What used to be SPM tasks, or tasks that persist and can be restarted on other hosts is talked about in previous bullet points. A nice simplification.
-- Adam Litke <agl@us.ibm.com> IBM Linux Technology Center _______________________________________________ vdsm-devel mailing list vdsm-devel@lists.fedorahosted.org https://lists.fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/vdsm-devel
-- Yaniv Bronhaim. RedHat, Israel 09-7692289 054-7744187
On Wed, Dec 05, 2012 at 09:45:48AM -0500, Saggi Mizrahi wrote:
I'm sorry but your email client messed up the formatting and I can't figure out what are you comments. Could you please use text only emails.
It's funny to hear this form someone that uses top-posting with long lines. But that's not the reason of my confusion. I know very well that the current task framework in vdsm is an over complicated mess. I believe that there is only one living person that understands http://wiki.ovirt.org/File:Vdsmtasks.jpg, and it is not me. However, I do not know what you want to achieve in the future. You detail what tasks are not going to give me: no persistence, no cleanup, no synchronization. Do they give me a fake progress bar percentage? When Engine requests to run a new VM, it calls the vmCreate verb, which returns immediately. Engine then polls the VM until it leaves its initial waitForLaunch state. I've daydreamed about changing this to something more generic, using the task framework - but I do not see how your new vision helps to achieve this. Could you provide some guidance on your vision, with this use case in mind? Dan.
participants (4)
-
Adam Litke -
Dan Kenigsberg -
Saggi Mizrahi -
ybronhei