7:59 a.m.
Hi,
We are working on adding VNIC profiles as part of the work to add VNIC QoS.
http://www.ovirt.org/Features/Network_QoS#VNIC_Profiles
We need to define some of the system behavior followed by this change,
here is my take -
Editing a profile -
--------------------
A user should be able to edit the profile properties (including profile
name) while VMs are attached and are using this Profile (reference
should be done by id).
Changing the network though is a bit more tricky as long as we don't
have a way to distinguish between running and current configurations I
think it could be very confusing to the user. Especially since we
support dynamic wiring so the behavior IMO is unpredictable.
I think it should be blocked at this point.
Edit a VNIC / change a VNIC profile -
------------------------------------
Changing the profile a VM is using while the VM is running should behave
like dynamic wiring (changing the VM network while it is running).
Remove a Profile -
-------------------
Is only valid if all VMs that are using this profile are in status down.
It should update all VMs to point to no profile which should behave like
none network today.
I see no reason to support a profile on a none network at this point.
The above is also relevant for upgrade flow (upgrading none network to
point to no profile)
Removing a Network -
----------------------
should remove all profiles on that network
VM snapshot/import/export -
--------------------------
We should handle VMs that are pointing to a network directly for b/w
compatibility.
we need to select first profile that is on that network that the user
has permissions on.
I assume there are more, comments are welcome
Thanks, Livnat
1:22 p.m.
Hi Livnat,
My name is Malini Rao and I am the lead interaction designer dedicated to RHEV/Ovirt UX
from Red Hat and we have another interaction designer Eldan Hildeshiem who is also focused
on RHEV UX. I went over your feature page and in general, the GUI proposals look great. I
do have some quick feedback comments -
Will there be any predefined profiles available to the users out of the box in RHEV? Or
will they have to define their own? I am wondering if there are any common standard QoS
levels that can be predefined and the users can get a heeadstart and use or tweak instead
of defining from scratch.
VNIC level QoS dialog
1. Will the Outbound and inbound values come with some defaults? Or will they be empty? Is
there a need for any spinners or drop downs for frequently used values or is it ok to just
have fields to type in the numeric values? Also I am assuming there is some kind of
validation to ensure only numbers an be entered in these fields.
2. For custom properties, why do we have a drop down? Can custom properties defined
elsewhere be accessed here and applied? If not, then I am assuming this will have to be a
text field. Correct? Also, I am guessing if there is only one custom property field, the
[-] icon will be disabled.
Edit Network Interface Dialog
1. It will be awesome if under the Profile Field value, you can present a short summary of
the profile in gray text. alternately, there can be a little info icon which will present
this info on hover. This will help people who pick Gold know what that means vs silver or
any other profile.
Besides these specific feedback, I am wondering if any of the VM dialogs are affected by
this? Will a VNIC profile field now show up on those dialogs as well?
I see you have identified a bunch of open issues to work out and we will be more than
happy to help you with the GUI for these flows as needed. Please feel free to reach out to
Eldan and me and we can post back to the group with our work.
Thanks
Malini
----- Original Message -----
From: "Livnat Peer" <lpeer(a)redhat.com>
To: "engine-devel" <engine-devel(a)ovirt.org>, "Ofri Masad"
<omasad(a)redhat.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 8:59:37 AM
Subject: [Engine-devel] VNIC profiles
Hi,
We are working on adding VNIC profiles as part of the work to add VNIC QoS.
http://www.ovirt.org/Features/Network_QoS#VNIC_Profiles
We need to define some of the system behavior followed by this change,
here is my take -
Editing a profile -
--------------------
A user should be able to edit the profile properties (including profile
name) while VMs are attached and are using this Profile (reference
should be done by id).
Changing the network though is a bit more tricky as long as we don't
have a way to distinguish between running and current configurations I
think it could be very confusing to the user. Especially since we
support dynamic wiring so the behavior IMO is unpredictable.
I think it should be blocked at this point.
Edit a VNIC / change a VNIC profile -
------------------------------------
Changing the profile a VM is using while the VM is running should behave
like dynamic wiring (changing the VM network while it is running).
Remove a Profile -
-------------------
Is only valid if all VMs that are using this profile are in status down.
It should update all VMs to point to no profile which should behave like
none network today.
I see no reason to support a profile on a none network at this point.
The above is also relevant for upgrade flow (upgrading none network to
point to no profile)
Removing a Network -
----------------------
should remove all profiles on that network
VM snapshot/import/export -
--------------------------
We should handle VMs that are pointing to a network directly for b/w
compatibility.
we need to select first profile that is on that network that the user
has permissions on.
I assume there are more, comments are welcome
Thanks, Livnat
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Engine-devel(a)ovirt.org
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1 a.m.
On 07/01/2013 09:22 PM, Malini Rao wrote:
Hi Malini - nice to e-meet you :)
I went over your feature page and in general, the GUI proposals look
great. I do have some quick feedback comments -
Just a small credit correction - the feature page is Ofri's feature
page, I added some feedback of my own :)
Will there be any predefined profiles available to the users out of the box in RHEV? Or
will they have to define their own?
If you start with a clean install setup there are no predefined vNICs
profiles.
Profiles can be generated in two flows, a user can explicitly generate a
profile or when admin network creates a new network he can mark create a
profile for this network** in a single action.
A VNIC profile is the link between the abstract network entity and the
VM which consumes this network.
If you upgrade existing setup, in the upgrade process profiles will be
created per network and will be attached to the VNICs that are currently
using the network.
**This is not accurate, the user would be able to check all relevant
VNIC-QoS-entities and for each one we need to create a profile.
I am wondering if there are any common standard QoS levels that can
be predefined and the users can get a heeadstart and use or tweak instead of defining from
scratch.
That's a very good point.
The wiki page is not fully up to date, I think.
Ofri wanted to add an entity of VNIC QoS which would be linked from
within the VNIC profile.
The VNIC QoS entity is located in the entities hierarchy under Data Center.
The point you made, I think, is will we have predefined VNIC QoS entities.
The Qos entity is tight to the hardware you have in your DC. If you have
10G or 1G Ethernet links the QoS entities would look very different, so
I'm not sure what predefined values would look like.
Thank you Malini for the above feedback, I think these are good questions.
Ofri - can you comment on the above ?
Livnat
11:42 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
Sorry about that! Ofri, I look forward to collaborating with you and I hope we can
contribute to this feature from the UX/ usability perspective.
So you are saying any VNIC profiles created and the associations with VMS that already
exist will be preserved during Upgrades... correct? But none of these need to be
pre-defined ( as in something that was available to the user automatically and not via
user action)... correct?
**This is not accurate, the user would be able to check all relevant
VNIC-QoS-entities and for each one we need to create a profile.
So there are two concepts here - VNIC-QoS-entities and VNIC Profiles?
So are you saying that we can have pre-defined VNIC Qos Entities like Gold, silver etc.
but not VNIC profiles because what is gold for a 10G Ehternet is different from gold for a
1G Ethernet? But even if they are different, can the VNIC profiles not also be auto
generated based on the Hardware and the VNIC Qos Entities?
Looking forward to some of the answers to the questions above.
1:02 a.m.
On 07/03/2013 07:42 PM, Malini Rao wrote:
correct x2
correct again :)
I am saying it is something that Ofri should consider, although I
personally don't think there is an added value in having a pre-defined
VNIC Qos.
but not VNIC profiles because what is gold for a 10G Ehternet is
different from gold for a 1G Ethernet?
VNIC profile is associated with a specific Network, so technically we
can't have pre-defined profiles as we don't have predefined Networks.
Well, we do have the management network (which is predefined) and for
that we do need to create a predefined profile - Thanks.
This point out another behavior we should document, when removing the
VM-network role from a network we need to remove the profiles associated
with that network. (Moti, can you capture this in the VNIC profile wiki
as well)
But even if they are different, can the VNIC profiles not also be
auto generated based on the Hardware and the VNIC Qos Entities?
I lost you here, can you please elaborate.
5:59 a.m.
Hi,
I've updated the wiki with the feedbacks from this thread, added a backend section
naming the affected commands and also add added few questions of my own embedded in the
pastedtext below.
In addition, another question here:
The units within the UI mockups are Mb and Mbps. The libvirt APIs expects the units to be
in kb and kbps. Which component is responsible to convert them to the expect units ?
engine or VDSM ?
Copied text from the wiki:
Adding a Profile
The network administrator could create several VNIC Profiles for each network. He could
then grant a users with the permission to use (consume) each profile. The user will only
be able to use profiles which he was granted access to.
For example: the network admin will create two VNIC profiles for network
"blue":
Profile "Gold" - with better QoS and with port mirroring
Profile "Silver" with lower QoS and without port mirroring.
He will then define the user-group "students" as user of profile
"Silver" and user-group "teachers" as user of profile
"Gold". In this case the teachers will enjoy better quality of service then the
students. When a teacher will add/edit a virtual NIC he could select profile
"Gold" for that NIC - the VNIC will be connected to network "blue"
with high QoS and with port mirroring.
Question: In the same matter we allowed via the UI to grant 'NetworkUser' to
'everyone' user, wouldn't it ease the use of Profiles if we support it in this
context as well?
Editing a Profile
A user should be able to edit the profile properties (including profile name) while
VMs are attached and are using this Profile (reference should be done by id).
Changing the network of a vNic profile will be allowed only if no VMs are using the
profile.
Since we have no way to distinguish between running and current configurations,
the expected behavior of such a change is unpredictable and less intuitive to the user
(especially since dynamic wiring is supported).
The changes will seep down to all VNICs using the profile.
In case VNIC using the edited profile are connected to running VMs, the change
will apply only on the VM next run.
Question: What about Hibernate/Suspend VM ? will the resume VM action uses the original
configuration for the vnics when the VM was started ?
Deleting a Profile
VNIC Profiles could not be deleted from the engine as long as one or more VM/Templates are
using those profiles.
Reporting vNic actual configuration
The engine will retrieve the actual configuration of the profile properties on the
VNIC from VDSM (using the network statistics mechanism) and the networked administrator
will be presented with the state of each VNIC (synched/unsynched).
Editing a VNIC / Changing a VNIC profile
Changing the profile a VM is using while the VM is running should behave like dynamic
wiring (changing the VM network while it is running).
Hot-plug of a vnic will will use will use the updated profile connected to the VNIC.
Adding a Network
When adding a network, a user can provide an option to create a vNic Profile for it.
Question: Is it s default profile ? what are its properties ?
Question: What about 'Public Use' option ? Are they still relevant in the context
of adding new networks or we should eliminate them and move it only to 'Add vNic
Profile' dialog?
Updating a Network
When a network role is modified to be a 'non-VM network', all vNic profiles
associated with it should be deleted.
Removing a Network
Should remove all profiles on that network
Adding an Empty Data-Center
Currently, When creating a new Data-Center, the management network is automatically
created.
From 3.3, a default vNic profile will be created for the management network.
VM snapshot/import/export
We should handle VMs that are pointing to a network directly for backward
compatibility.
We need to select first profile that is on that network that the user has permissions
on.
Question: Do we wish to support it export from 3.3 and import to 3.2 or below?
Question: A user can import/export a VM/Template even if he doesn't have permissions
on the networks. Is the next flow valid ?
The profile name should be saved in the OVF (in addition to the network name which is
saved today).
During import, if both (network name, profile name) exist on the target DC, the vnic
will get the profile id.
If the network exists in the Data-Center, but has no profile as specified in the OVF,
the user will be notified (event log) and the VNIC will be connected to a default minimal
profile defined in the system, regardless the permissions the user has on the network.
If failed to find any matching vNic profile, the vnic's profile will be set with
'none'.
When a Template is created from a VM the VNIC Profile will be kept along with the
VNIC. When a VM is created from template the VNIC Profiles will be taken from the
template's VNICs.
----- Original Message -----
6:59 a.m.
On 07/07/2013 01:59 PM, Moti Asayag wrote:
Hi Moti,
A good and comprehensive description of the feature behavior.
See my comments bellow -
Giuseppe mentioned that in a previous thread on this subject.
Ofri and Giuseppe agreed that the translation would be done on the
engine level.
I would use other names for the profiles to avoid confusion.
Gold and Silver are likely to be QoS object names, a more typical name
for a network profile is - teachers-blue and students-blue
The different profiles can have different QoS (teachers-blue would get
Gold QoS while Students-blue will have Silver).
The ease of use could be that when creating a network we'll display in
the UI all VNIC-QoS-objects and the users could tick next to the QoS
they are interested in, for each QoS that was chosen a profile would be
created.
I would enhance that with youe suggestion above and display next to the
QoS that was checked the option to mark 'Allow All users' like we have
today for making a network public, this option would give permission to
everyone on that profile.
It would be better if we can limit this to no running VM is using the
profile (or more simple to implement if all VMs that are using this
profile are in status down).
Currently profile includes: network, port-mirroring, custom property, QoS
Changing any of the above (except for network) requires a VM reboot, so
I think that we can start with the following statement - the profile
change would only apply after next VM reboot.
There are 2 problems with the above:
- Today we support network wiring, with VNIC profiles we are asking the
users to create a new profile and attach the VMs to the new profile, I
can see the RFE coming - we can report that ourselves ;)
- We don't reflect with which configuration the VM is running, e.g we
edited the profile QoS but I'm not sure with which QoS the VM is
currently running. (The RFE for differentiating between current
configuration and running configuration was already asked for by
numerous users)
The above is a general issue that we need to solve and I would not limit
editing VNIC profiles because of it.
We can mitigate this specifically for QoS like described bellow.
Will the admin be able to see the actual values? I think the synced
property is not enough (I'm not sure how interesting this property is to
start with).
Not sure I fully understand the sentence above.
Hot plug will be fully supported, you can choose any profile (you have
permissions on) while plugging a new device.
see previous comments
In addition when creating a profile we should have 'Allow all' for
implicitly creating permissions, like we have today for network.
And permissions associated with these profiles
And associated permissions
That means that when you write a VM in the OVF you need to write network
in addition to profile.
What is a 'default minimal profile' ? I would rather have a VNIC with no
profile associated with it.
4:36 p.m.
I've updated the wiki accordingly and added few comments inline.
----- Original Message -----
Allowing to delete a vnic profile when used by vms is asymmetric to the network removal
when it is used by vms or templates. Today the update network operation is blocked for
that.
In addition, with the suggest simplification to remove a profile when no running vms, the
user
will have to find for himself if the profile is being used prior to its removal since the
operation will not be blocked.
If we allow to delete a vnic profile, when a vm is using it (regardless the VM status)
we'll have to update the VM entity as well in that operation: since we do not support
a
network with 'none' profile, we'll have to delete the network as well.
If we'll remove a vnic profile in 3.1 cluster, used by vms in status down, we'd
find a case
in which a VM is attached to a 'none' network. This is unsupported in 3.1 cluster.
We can block
such operation, but this is another motivation why we'd better not to allow removing a
used profile.
We can extend the VmGuestAgentInterface to contain the actual value, so they
will be presented for each vnic in the 'guest data' sub-tab.
That was the intention. seems like an edgy hand syndrome :)
Changed to:
* Hot plug will be fully supported: the user can choose any permitted profile while
plugging a new device or when activating an existing one.
The network name is already there, so when importing a vnic from 3.3 to an earlier
version
the profile name will be ignored.
The 'default minimal profile' refers to a vnic profile with the lower average
bandwidth.
With the approach you've suggested, any imported VM/Template from an earlier to 3.3
version
will require a manual intervention in order to configure a network to the VM.
And for 3.1 we'll have to drop such vnics since network 'none' isn't
supported.
2:11 a.m.
On 07/08/2013 12:36 AM, Moti Asayag wrote:
The context above is about editing not deleting :)
I agree with what you wrote if the context was remove.
AFAIU this info does not come from the guest it is info we retrieve from
libvirt.
The VmGuestAgentInterface should be used only for information reported
by the guest, information whose credibility can be questioned.
I should have elaborated some more -
If a VM has a profile then we should look up this specific profile, if
such a profile does not exists then import the VM with profile none like
we do today for VM's with reference to a network that does not exist on
the setup.
If a VM does not have a profile (3.2 and lower versions) we should look
into the network name, if this network exist and we have a profile with
permissions to the user then use this profile (if there is more than one
choose one randomly).
3:21 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
we'll use the vm network statistics to persist that information which will be
presented to the user in new sub-tab under the vm-network-interface sub-tab.
The wiki was updated with the VM/Template import logic:
http://www.ovirt.org/Features/Vnic_Profiles#VM_snapshot.2Fimport.2Fexport
5:17 a.m.
On 07/08/2013 11:21 AM, Moti Asayag wrote:
...
1. you are updating the OVF - have you found a matching field in the OVF
spec[1] for vnic profiles?
2. import/export - please note exporting is backward compatible based on
DC level (iirc - omer should remember better), i.e., if the DC is 3.2,
the export should ignore vnic profiles, etc.
3. while at it - just to make sure before i add more comments- are the
screenshots in the wiki up to date?
Thanks,
Itamar
[1] http://dmtf.org/standards/ovf
3:25 a.m.
On 07/13/2013 01:17 PM, Itamar Heim wrote:
Currently the only field used to specify the network is "Connection".
There is no specific field for specifying a vnic profile. We can make
a use of the 'OtherResourceType' which isn't in use by the engine for
storing the vnic profile name.
An alternative would be using the Connection field to store both
Network:Profile, and parsing it when a vm or template are being imported.
I'm in favour of the first option for simplicity and in order not to
modify the Connection field as is being used today.
The images should be updated since the vnic profiles will be a main-tab,
appears only when a network is selected, instead of a sub-tab of the
networks.
7:58 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
That's how Quota works:)
I think it would be great if we could show profiles main tab also under system.
But as we have too many main tabs under system and we don't have the option to
close tabs we don't want to see, we decided not to put profiles main tab under
system.
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19 comments
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participants (7)
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Alona Kaplan -
Eli Mesika -
Itamar Heim -
Livnat Peer -
Malini Rao -
Moti Asayag -
Oved Ourfalli