Cheers,=0A> > >=0A> > > Juergen=0A> >=0A> > That is usually a matter= of taste and the available environment.=0A> > The minimal differences in=
--_=__=_XaM3_.1389253825.2A.969204.42.21473.52.42.007.201569504 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable you can use flashcache under centos6, it's stable and give you a boost fo= r read/write, but I never user with gluster:https://github.com/facebook/f= lashcache/under fedora you have more choice: flashcache, bcache, dm-cache= regardsaDate: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 21:44:35 -0600From: Darrell Budic <darrell.= budic@zenfire.com>To: Russell Purinton <russ@sonicbx.com>Cc: "users@ovirt= .org" <users@ovirt.org>Subject: Re: [Users] SSD CachingMessage-ID: <A4505= 9D4-B00D-4573-81E7-F00B2B9FA4AA@zenfire.com>Content-Type: text/plain; cha= rset=3D"windows-1252"Stick=0A your bricks on ZFS and let it do it for you= . Works well, although I =0Ahaven?t done much benchmarking of it. My test= setup is described in the =0Athread under [Users] Creation of preallocat= ed disk with Gluster =0Areplication. I?ve seen some blog posts here and t= here about gluster on =0AZFS for this reason too. -DarrellOn Jan 7, 2014,= at 9:56 PM, Russell Purinton <russ@sonicbx.com> wrote:> [20:42] <sonicro= se> is anybody out there using a good RAM+SSD caching system ahead of glu= ster storage?> [20:42] <sonicrose> sorry if that came through twice>=0A [= 20:44] <sonicrose> im thinking about making the SSD one giant =0Aswap fil= e then creating a very large ramdisk in virtual memory and using=0A that = as a block level cache for parts and pieces of virtual machine =0Adisk im= ages> [20:44] <sonicrose> then i think the memory =0Amanagers would inher= ently play the role of storage tiering ie: keeping =0Athe hottest data in= memory and the coldest data on swap> [20:45] =0A<sonicrose> everything i= have seen today has been setup as =0A"consumer" =3D=3D=3D> network =3D= =3D=3D=3D> SSD cache =3D=3D=3D=3D> real disks> [20:45] <sonicrose> but i'= d like to actually do "consumer" =3D=3D=3D> RAM+SSD cache =3D=3D=3D> net= work =3D=3D=3D> real disks>=0A [20:46] <sonicrose> i realize doing a virt= ual memory disk means =0Athe cache will be cleared on every reboot, and I= 'm ok with that> =0A[20:47] <sonicrose> i know this can be done with NFS = and =0Acachefilesd(fscache), but how could something be integrated into t= he =0Anative gluster clients?> [20:47] <sonicrose> i'd prefer not to have= to access gluster via NFS>=0A [20:49] <sonicrose> any feedback from this= room is greatly =0Aappreciated, getting someone started to build managed= HA cloud hosting>=0ADa: users-bounces@ovirt.org=0AA: users@ovirt.org=0AC= c: =0AData: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 02:34:48 -0500=0AOggetto: Users Digest, Vol = 28, Issue 61=0A=0A> Send Users mailing list submissions to=0A> users@ovi= rt.org=0A> =0A> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit= =0A> http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users=0A> or, via email, se= nd a message with subject or body 'help' to=0A> users-request@ovirt.org=0A= p Disaster Recovery Site=0A> > (DR) for an Ovirt cluster . i.e if site 1 = goes down I need to trigger the=0A> > site 2 to come in to action with th= e minimal down time .=0A> >=0A> > I am open to use NFS shared storage or = local storage for data storage=0A> > domain . I know we need to replicate= the storage domain and Ovirt confs and=0A> > DB across the sites , but = couldn't find any doc for the same , isn't that=0A> > possible with Ovirt= ?=0A> >=0A> > *Hans Emmanuel*=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > *NOthing to FEAR but so= mething to FEEL......*=0A> >=0A> >=0A> =0A> =0A> -- =0A> *Hans Emmanuel*=0A= limits. I guess you could help Sven =0A> better if you had some hard fact= s why to favour ISCSI. =0A> =0A> Best regards.=0A> =0A> Markus=0A> ------= -------- next part --------------=0A> An embedded and charset-unspecified= text was scrubbed...=0A> Name: InterScan_Disclaimer.txt=0A> URL: =0A> =0A= the capacity of 1 network interface at the same=0A> time, from one Host (= higher bandwidth) that makes people try iSCSI=0A> instead of plain NFS. I= have tried that but was never able to achieve=0A> that effect, so in our= situation, there?s no difference. In comparing=0A> them both in benchmar= ks, there was no performance difference at all, at=0A> least for our stor= age systems that are based on FreeBSD.=0A> =0A> /K=0A> =0A> -------------= -----------------=0A> =0A> Message: 5=0A> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 08:34:44 = +0100=0A> From: squadra =0A> To: Markus Stockhausen =0A> Cc: users@ovirt.= org=0A> Subject: Re: [Users] Experience with low cost NFS-Storage as=0A> = VM-Storage?=0A> Message-ID:=0A> =0A> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D= "utf-8"=0A> =0A> There's are already enaugh articles on the web about NFS= problems related=0A> locking, latency, etc.... Eh stacking a protocol on= to another to fix=0A> problem and then maybe one more to glue them togeth= er.=0A> =0A> Google for the suse PDF " why NFS sucks", I don't agree with= the whole=0A> sheet.. NFS got his place,too. But not as production filer= for VM.=0A> =0A> Cheers,=0A> =0A> Juergen, the NFS lover=0A> On Jan 9, 2= 014 8:10 AM, "Markus Stockhausen" =0A> wrote:=0A> =0A> > > Von: users-bou= nces@ovirt.org [users-bounces@ovirt.org]" im Auftrag von=0A> > "squadra [= squadra@gmail.com]=0A> > > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. Januar 2014 17:15=0A> >= th omnios to get comstar iscsi, which is a rocksolid solution=0A> > >=0A>= performance usually only show up=0A> > if you drive the storage to its l= imits. I guess you could help Sven=0A> > better if you had some hard fact= s why to favour ISCSI.=0A> >=0A> > Best regards.=0A> >=0A> > Markus=0A> -= ------------- next part --------------=0A> An HTML attachment was scrubbe= d...=0A> URL: =0A> =0A> ------------------------------=0A> =0A> _________= ______________________________________=0A> Users mailing list=0A> Users@o= virt.org=0A> http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users=0A> =0A> =0A> = End of Users Digest, Vol 28, Issue 61=0A> *******************************= ****** --_=__=_XaM3_.1389253825.2A.969204.42.21473.52.42.007.201569504 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A<div class=3D"xam_msg_class">=0A<div style=3D"font: normal 13px Arial;= color:rgb(31, 28, 27);"><br>you can use flashcache under centos6, it's s= table and give you a boost for read/write, but I never user with gluster:= <br><br>https://github.com/facebook/flashcache/<br><br>under fedora you h= ave more choice: flashcache, bcache, dm-cache<br><br>regards<br>a<br><br>= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 21:44:35 -0600<br>From: Darrell Budic <darrell.b= udic@zenfire.com><br>To: Russell Purinton <russ@sonicbx.com><br>= Cc: "users@ovirt.org" <users@ovirt.org><br>Subject: Re: [Users] SSD= Caching<br>Message-ID: <A45059D4-B00D-4573-81E7-F00B2B9FA4AA@zenfire.= com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"windows-1252"<br><br>Stic= k=0A your bricks on ZFS and let it do it for you. Works well, although I = =0Ahaven?t done much benchmarking of it. My test setup is described in th= e =0Athread under [Users] Creation of preallocated disk with Gluster =0Ar= eplication. I?ve seen some blog posts here and there about gluster on =0A= ZFS for this reason too.<br><br> -Darrell<br><br>On Jan 7, 2014, at 9:56 = PM, Russell Purinton <russ@sonicbx.com> wrote:<br><br>> [20:42] = <sonicrose> is anybody out there using a good RAM+SSD caching syste= m ahead of gluster storage?<br>> [20:42] <sonicrose> sorry if th= at came through twice<br>>=0A [20:44] <sonicrose> im thinking ab= out making the SSD one giant =0Aswap file then creating a very large ramd= isk in virtual memory and using=0A that as a block level cache for parts = and pieces of virtual machine =0Adisk images<br>> [20:44] <sonicros= e> then i think the memory =0Amanagers would inherently play the role = of storage tiering ie: keeping =0Athe hottest data in memory and the cold= est data on swap<br>> [20:45] =0A<sonicrose> everything i have s= een today has been setup as =0A"consumer" =3D=3D=3D> network =3D=3D= =3D=3D> SSD cache =3D=3D=3D=3D> real disks<br>> [20:45] <soni= crose> but i'd like to actually do "consumer" =3D=3D=3D> RAM+SSD ca= che =3D=3D=3D> network =3D=3D=3D> real disks<br>>=0A [20:46] &l= t;sonicrose> i realize doing a virtual memory disk means =0Athe cache = will be cleared on every reboot, and I'm ok with that<br>> =0A[20:47] = <sonicrose> i know this can be done with NFS and =0Acachefilesd(fsc= ache), but how could something be integrated into the =0Anative gluster c= lients?<br>> [20:47] <sonicrose> i'd prefer not to have to acces= s gluster via NFS<br>>=0A [20:49] <sonicrose> any feedback from = this room is greatly =0Aappreciated, getting someone started to build man= aged HA cloud hosting<br>><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>= <br><br>=0A<div><span style=3D"font-family:Arial; font-size:11px; color:#= 5F5F5F;">Da</span><span style=3D"font-family:Arial; font-size:12px; color= :#5F5F5F; padding-left:5px;">: users-bounces@ovirt.org</span></div>=0A<di= v><span style=3D"font-family:Arial; font-size:11px; color:#5F5F5F;">A</sp= an><span style=3D"font-family:Arial; font-size:12px; color:#5F5F5F; paddi= ng-left:5px;">: users@ovirt.org</span></div>=0A<div><span style=3D"font-f= amily:Arial; font-size:11px; color:#5F5F5F;">Cc</span><span style=3D"font= -family:Arial; font-size:12px; color:#5F5F5F; padding-left:5px;">: </span= div>> </div><div>> You can reach the person managing the list at</d= iv><div>> users-owner@ovirt.org</div><div>> </div><div>> When r= eplying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific</div><div>&= gt; than "Re: Contents of Users digest..."</div><div>> </div><div>>= </div><div>> Today's Topics:</div><div>> </div><div>> 1. Re:= SSD Caching (Darrell Budic)</div><div>> 2. Re: Ovirt DR setup (Han= s Emmanuel)</div><div>> 3. Re: Experience with low cost NFS-Storage= as VM-Storage?</div><div>> (Markus Stockhausen)</div><div>> = 4. Re: Experience with low cost NFS-Storage as VM-Storage?</div><div>&= gt; (Karli Sj?berg)</div><div>> 5. Re: Experience with low co= st NFS-Storage as VM-Storage? (squadra)</div><div>> </div><div>> </= div><div>> -----------------------------------------------------------= -----------</div><div>> </div><div>> Message: 1</div><div>> Date= : Wed, 8 Jan 2014 21:44:35 -0600</div><div>> From: Darrell Budic <darr= ell.budic@zenfire.com></darrell.budic@zenfire.com></div><div>> To: Rus= sell Purinton <russ@sonicbx.com></russ@sonicbx.com></div><div>> Cc: "u= sers@ovirt.org" <users@ovirt.org></users@ovirt.org></div><div>> Subjec= t: Re: [Users] SSD Caching</div><div>> Message-ID: <a45059d4-b00d-4573= -81e7-f00b2b9fa4aa@zenfire.com></a45059d4-b00d-4573-81e7-f00b2b9fa4aa@zen= fire.com></div><div>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"windows-125= 2"</div><div>> </div><div>> Stick your bricks on ZFS and let it do = it for you. Works well, although I haven?t done much benchmarking of it. = My test setup is described in the thread under [Users] Creation of preall= ocated disk with Gluster replication. I?ve seen some blog posts here and = there about gluster on ZFS for this reason too.</div><div>> </div><div= the SSD one giant swap file then creating a very large ramdisk in virtual= memory and using that as a block level cache for parts and pieces of vir= tual machine disk images</sonicrose></div><div>> > [20:44] <sonicro= se> then i think the memory managers would inherently play the role of st= orage tiering ie: keeping the hottest data in memory and the coldest data= on swap</sonicrose></div><div>> > [20:45] <sonicrose> everything i= have seen today has been setup as "consumer" =3D=3D=3D> network =3D= =3D=3D=3D> SSD cache =3D=3D=3D=3D> real disks</sonicrose></div><div= this can be done with NFS and cachefilesd(fscache), but how could somethi= ng be integrated into the native gluster clients?</sonicrose></div><div>&= gt; > [20:47] <sonicrose> i'd prefer not to have to access gluster via= NFS</sonicrose></div><div>> > [20:49] <sonicrose> any feedback fro= m this room is greatly appreciated, getting someone started to build mana= ged HA cloud hosting</sonicrose></div><div>> > ____________________= ___________________________</div><div>> > Users mailing list</div><= div>> > Users@ovirt.org</div><div>> > http://lists.ovirt.org/= mailman/listinfo/users</div><div>> </div><div>> -------------- next= part --------------</div><div>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...</d= iv><div>> URL: <http: lists.ovirt.org=3D"" pipermail=3D"" users=3D"" a= ttachments=3D"" 20140108=3D"" 21aef6d2=3D"" attachment-0001.html=3D""></h= ttp:></div><div>> </div><div>> ------------------------------</div>= <div>> </div><div>> Message: 2</div><div>> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014= 10:34:26 +0530</div><div>> From: Hans Emmanuel <hansemmanuel@gmail.co= m></hansemmanuel@gmail.com></div><div>> To: users@ovirt.org</div><div>= > Subject: Re: [Users] Ovirt DR setup</div><div>> Message-ID:</div>= <div>> <cakym+td8o3g+zfsfgybzegnnk+hxq=3D9tj9j9r1ky_thyemcxwa@mail.gm= ail.com></cakym+td8o3g+zfsfgybzegnnk+hxq=3D9tj9j9r1ky_thyemcxwa@mail.gmai= l.com></div><div>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"</d= iv><div>> </div><div>> Could any one please give me some suggestion= s ?</div><div>> </div><div>> </div><div>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at= 11:39 AM, Hans Emmanuel <hansemmanuel@gmail.com>wrote:</hansemmanuel@gma= il.com></div><div>> </div><div>> > Hi all ,</div><div>> ><= /div><div>> > I would like to know about the possibility of setup D= isaster Recovery Site</div><div>> > (DR) for an Ovirt cluster . i.e= if site 1 goes down I need to trigger the</div><div>> > site 2 to = come in to action with the minimal down time .</div><div>> ></div><= div>> > I am open to use NFS shared storage or local storage for da= ta storage</div><div>> > domain . I know we need to replicate the s= torage domain and Ovirt confs and</div><div>> > DB across the sites= , but couldn't find any doc for the same , isn't that</div><div>> &g= t; possible with Ovirt ?</div><div>> ></div><div>> > *Hans E= mmanuel*</div><div>> ></div><div>> ></div><div>> > *NOt= hing to FEAR but something to FEEL......*</div><div>> ></div><div>&= gt; ></div><div>> </div><div>> </div><div>> -- </div><div>>= ; *Hans Emmanuel*</div><div>> </div><div>> *NOthing to FEAR but som= ething to FEEL......*</div><div>> -------------- next part -----------= ---</div><div>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...</div><div>> URL:= <http: lists.ovirt.org=3D"" pipermail=3D"" users=3D"" attachments=3D"" 2= 0140109=3D"" ae9bb53c=3D"" attachment-0001.html=3D""></http:></div><div>&= gt; </div><div>> ------------------------------</div><div>> </div><= div>> Message: 3</div><div>> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 07:10:07 +0000</= div><div>> From: Markus Stockhausen <stockhausen@collogia.de></stockha= usen@collogia.de></div><div>> To: squadra <squadra@gmail.com>, "users@= ovirt.org" <users@ovirt.org></users@ovirt.org></squadra@gmail.com></div><= div>> Subject: Re: [Users] Experience with low cost NFS-Storage as</di= v><div>> VM-Storage?</div><div>> Message-ID:</div><div>> <1= 2EF8D94C6F8734FB2FF37B9FBEDD173585B991E@EXCHANGE.collogia.de></div><di= v>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"</div><div>> </di= v><div>> > Von: users-bounces@ovirt.org [users-bounces@ovirt.org]" = im Auftrag von "squadra [squadra@gmail.com]</div><div>> > Gesendet:= Mittwoch, 8. Januar 2014 17:15</div><div>> > An: users@ovirt.org</= div><div>> > Betreff: Re: [Users] Experience with low cost NFS-Stor= age as VM-Storage?</div><div>> ></div><div>> > better go for = iscsi or something else... i whould avoid nfs for vm hosting</div><div>&g= t; > Freebsd10 delivers kernel iscsitarget now, which works great so f= ar. or go with omnios to get comstar iscsi, which is a rocksolid solution= </div><div>> ></div><div>> > Cheers,</div><div>> > </di= v><div>> > Juergen</div><div>> </div><div>> That is usually a= matter of taste and the available environment. </div><div>> The minim= al differences in performance usually only show up</div><div>> if you = drive the storage to its limits. I guess you could help Sven </div><div>&= gt; better if you had some hard facts why to favour ISCSI. </div><div>>= ; </div><div>> Best regards.</div><div>> </div><div>> Markus</di= v><div>> -------------- next part --------------</div><div>> An emb= edded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...</div><div>> Name: I= nterScan_Disclaimer.txt</div><div>> URL: <http: lists.ovirt.org=3D"" p= ipermail=3D"" users=3D"" attachments=3D"" 20140109=3D"" 3dfd362d=3D"" att= achment-0001.txt=3D""></http:></div><div>> </div><div>> -----------= -------------------</div><div>> </div><div>> Message: 4</div><div>&= gt; Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 07:30:56 +0000</div><div>> From: Karli Sj?be= rg <karli.sjoberg@slu.se></karli.sjoberg@slu.se></div><div>> To: "stoc= khausen@collogia.de" <stockhausen@collogia.de></stockhausen@collogia.de><= /div><div>> Cc: "squadra@gmail.com" <squadra@gmail.com>, "users@ovirt.= org"</squadra@gmail.com></div><div>> <users@ovirt.org></users@ovirt.o= rg></div><div>> Subject: Re: [Users] Experience with low cost NFS-Stor= age as</div><div>> VM-Storage?</div><div>> Message-ID: <5F9E965= F5A80BC468BE5F40576769F095AFE3369@exchange2-1></div><div>> Content-= Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"</div><div>> </div><div>> On Thu= , 2014-01-09 at 07:10 +0000, Markus Stockhausen wrote:</div><div>> >= ; > Von: users-bounces@ovirt.org [users-bounces@ovirt.org]" im Auftrag= von "squadra [squadra@gmail.com]</div><div>> > > Gesendet: Mitt= woch, 8. Januar 2014 17:15</div><div>> > > An: users@ovirt.org</= div><div>> > > Betreff: Re: [Users] Experience with low cost NFS= -Storage as VM-Storage?</div><div>> > ></div><div>> > >= better go for iscsi or something else... i whould avoid nfs for vm hosti= ng</div><div>> > > Freebsd10 delivers kernel iscsitarget now, wh= ich works great so far. or go with omnios to get comstar iscsi, which is = a rocksolid solution</div><div>> > ></div><div>> > > Ch= eers,</div><div>> > > </div><div>> > > Juergen</div><di= v>> > </div><div>> > That is usually a matter of taste and th= e available environment. </div><div>> > The minimal differences in = performance usually only show up</div><div>> > if you drive the sto= rage to its limits. I guess you could help Sven </div><div>> > bett= er if you had some hard facts why to favour ISCSI. </div><div>> > <= /div><div>> > Best regards.</div><div>> > </div><div>> >= ; Markus</div><div>> </div><div>> Only technical difference I can t= hink of is the iSCSI-level</div><div>> load-balancing. With NFS you se= t up the network with LACP and let that</div><div>> load-balance for y= ou (and you should probably do that with iSCSI as well</div><div>> but= you don?t strictly have to). I think it has to do with a chance of</div>= <div>> trying to go beyond the capacity of 1 network interface at the = same</div><div>> time, from one Host (higher bandwidth) that makes peo= ple try iSCSI</div><div>> instead of plain NFS. I have tried that but = was never able to achieve</div><div>> that effect, so in our situation= , there?s no difference. In comparing</div><div>> them both in benchma= rks, there was no performance difference at all, at</div><div>> least = for our storage systems that are based on FreeBSD.</div><div>> </div><= div>> /K</div><div>> </div><div>> ------------------------------= </div><div>> </div><div>> Message: 5</div><div>> Date: Thu, 9 Ja= n 2014 08:34:44 +0100</div><div>> From: squadra <squadra@gmail.com></s= quadra@gmail.com></div><div>> To: Markus Stockhausen <stockhausen@coll= ogia.de></stockhausen@collogia.de></div><div>> Cc: users@ovirt.org</di= v><div>> Subject: Re: [Users] Experience with low cost NFS-Storage as<= /div><div>> VM-Storage?</div><div>> Message-ID:</div><div>> <c= abx=3D=3Da33=3Dtq=3Dxzsbyssyfgxsycfheab7sxhgu8bx7fmhksj5aa@mail.gmail.com= the suse PDF " why NFS sucks", I don't agree with the whole</div><div>&g= t; sheet.. NFS got his place,too. But not as production filer for VM.</di= v><div>> </div><div>> Cheers,</div><div>> </div><div>> Juerge= n, the NFS lover</div><div>> On Jan 9, 2014 8:10 AM, "Markus Stockhaus= en" <stockhausen@collogia.de></stockhausen@collogia.de></div><div>> wr= ote:</div><div>> </div><div>> > > Von: users-bounces@ovirt.or= g [users-bounces@ovirt.org]" im Auftrag von</div><div>> > "squadra = [squadra@gmail.com]</div><div>> > > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. Janua= r 2014 17:15</div><div>> > > An: users@ovirt.org</div><div>> = > > Betreff: Re: [Users] Experience with low cost NFS-Storage as VM= -Storage?</div><div>> > ></div><div>> > > better go for= iscsi or something else... i whould avoid nfs for vm</div><div>> >= hosting</div><div>> > > Freebsd10 delivers kernel iscsitarget n= ow, which works great so far. or</div><div>> > go with omnios to ge= t comstar iscsi, which is a rocksolid solution</div><div>> > ></= div><div>> > > Cheers,</div><div>> > ></div><div>> &= gt; > Juergen</div><div>> ></div><div>> > That is usually = a matter of taste and the available environment.</div><div>> > The = minimal differences in performance usually only show up</div><div>> &g= t; if you drive the storage to its limits. I guess you could help Sven</d= iv><div>> > better if you had some hard facts why to favour ISCSI.<= /div><div>> ></div><div>> > Best regards.</div><div>> >= </div><div>> > Markus</div><div>> -------------- next part -----= ---------</div><div>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...</div><div>>= ; URL: <http: lists.ovirt.org=3D"" pipermail=3D"" users=3D"" attachments=3D= "" 20140109=3D"" 3b206609=3D"" attachment.html=3D""></http:></div><div>&g= t; </div><div>> ------------------------------</div><div>> </div><d= iv>> _______________________________________________</div><div>> Us= ers mailing list</div><div>> Users@ovirt.org</div><div>> http://lis= ts.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users</div><div>> </div><div>> </div>= <div>> End of Users Digest, Vol 28, Issue 61</div><div>> **********= ***************************</div></div>=0A</div>=0A --_=__=_XaM3_.1389253825.2A.969204.42.21473.52.42.007.201569504--
participants (2)
-
Amedeo Salvati -
Sander Grendelman