deprecating export domain?
Hello, I recently read on this list from a redhat member that export domain is either being deprecated or looking at being deprecated To that end, can you share details? Can you share any notes/postings/bz's that document this? I would imagine something like this would be discussed in larger audience This seems like a somewhat significant change to make and I am curious where this is scheduled? Currently, a lot of my backups rely explicitly on an export domain for online snapshots, so I'd like to plan accordingly Thanks!
On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 8:41 PM, Charles Kozler <ckozleriii@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
I recently read on this list from a redhat member that export domain is either being deprecated or looking at being deprecated
To that end, can you share details? Can you share any notes/postings/bz's that document this? I would imagine something like this would be discussed in larger audience
This seems like a somewhat significant change to make and I am curious where this is scheduled? Currently, a lot of my backups rely explicitly on an export domain for online snapshots, so I'd like to plan accordingly
We believe that the ability to detach and attach a data domain provides equivalent and even superior functionality to the export domain. Is there anything you'd miss? I don't believe it would be a significant change. Y.
Thanks!
_______________________________________________ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 9:58 AM Yaniv Kaul <ykaul@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 8:41 PM, Charles Kozler <ckozleriii@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
I recently read on this list from a redhat member that export domain is either being deprecated or looking at being deprecated
We want to deprecate the export domain, but it is not deprecated yet.
To that end, can you share details? Can you share any notes/postings/bz's that document this? I would imagine something like this would be discussed in larger audience
I agree.
This seems like a somewhat significant change to make and I am curious where this is scheduled? Currently, a lot of my backups rely explicitly on an export domain for online snapshots, so I'd like to plan accordingly
Can you describe how you backup your vms using export domain? What do you mean by online snapshots?
We believe that the ability to detach and attach a data domain provides equivalent and even superior functionality to the export domain. Is there anything you'd miss? I don't believe it would be a significant change.
Attaching and detaching data domain was not designed for backing up vms. How would you use it for backup? How do you ensure that a backup clone of a vm is not started by mistake, changing the backup contents? Nir
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Nir Soffer <nsoffer@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 9:58 AM Yaniv Kaul <ykaul@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 8:41 PM, Charles Kozler <ckozleriii@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
I recently read on this list from a redhat member that export domain is either being deprecated or looking at being deprecated
We want to deprecate the export domain, but it is not deprecated yet.
To that end, can you share details? Can you share any notes/postings/bz's that document this? I would imagine something like this would be discussed in larger audience
I agree.
This seems like a somewhat significant change to make and I am curious where this is scheduled? Currently, a lot of my backups rely explicitly on an export domain for online snapshots, so I'd like to plan accordingly
Can you describe how you backup your vms using export domain? What do you mean by online snapshots?
We believe that the ability to detach and attach a data domain provides equivalent and even superior functionality to the export domain. Is there anything you'd miss? I don't believe it would be a significant change.
Attaching and detaching data domain was not designed for backing up vms. How would you use it for backup?
How do you ensure that a backup clone of a vm is not started by mistake, changing the backup contents?
That is a good question. We recently introduced a new feature called "backup storage domain" which you can mark the storage domain as backup storage domain. That can guarantee that no VMs will run with disks/leases reside on the storage domain. The feature should already exist in oVirt 4.2 (despite a bug that should be handled with this patch https://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/81290/) You can find more information on this here: https://github.com/shubham0d/ovirt-site/blob/41dcb0f1791d90d1ae0ac43cd34a399... Basically the OVF that is being saved in the export domain should be similar to the same one that is being saved in the OVF_STORE disk in the storage domain. If the user manages replication on that storage domain it can be re-used for backup purposes by importing it to a setup. Actually it is much more efficient to use a data storage domain than to use the copy operation to/from the export storage domain.
Nir
Maor, Could you please clarify, what would be the process of making backup of a running VM to an existing backup storage domain? I’m asking because it looks like the process is going to be quite the same: 1. Clone VM from a snapshot 2. Move the cloned VM to a backup storage domain An ability of choosing destination storage for cloned VMs would increase backup efficiency. On the other hand, an ability of exporting VM from a snapshot would increase the efficiency in the same way even without creating new entity. Indeed, Backup SDs would increase efficiency of disaster recovery. But the same would be achieved by converting Export SDs to Data SDs using a small CLI utility. On 01/10/2017, 15:32, "users-bounces@ovirt.org on behalf of Maor Lipchuk" <users-bounces@ovirt.org on behalf of mlipchuk@redhat.com> wrote: On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Nir Soffer <nsoffer@redhat.com> wrote: > > Attaching and detaching data domain was not designed for backing up vms. > How would you use it for backup? > > How do you ensure that a backup clone of a vm is not started by mistake, > changing the backup contents? That is a good question. We recently introduced a new feature called "backup storage domain" which you can mark the storage domain as backup storage domain. That can guarantee that no VMs will run with disks/leases reside on the storage domain. The feature should already exist in oVirt 4.2 (despite a bug that should be handled with this patch https://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/81290/) You can find more information on this here: https://github.com/shubham0d/ovirt-site/blob/41dcb0f1791d90d1ae0ac43cd34a399... Basically the OVF that is being saved in the export domain should be similar to the same one that is being saved in the OVF_STORE disk in the storage domain. If the user manages replication on that storage domain it can be re-used for backup purposes by importing it to a setup. Actually it is much more efficient to use a data storage domain than to use the copy operation to/from the export storage domain. > > Nir _______________________________________________ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Thank you for clearing this up for me everyone. My concern that something like the export domain wasnt going to exist and it was just going to be deprecated with no alternative. Glad to hear all the news of the SD On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Pavel Gashev <Pax@acronis.com> wrote:
Maor,
Could you please clarify, what would be the process of making backup of a running VM to an existing backup storage domain?
I’m asking because it looks like the process is going to be quite the same: 1. Clone VM from a snapshot 2. Move the cloned VM to a backup storage domain
An ability of choosing destination storage for cloned VMs would increase backup efficiency. On the other hand, an ability of exporting VM from a snapshot would increase the efficiency in the same way even without creating new entity.
Indeed, Backup SDs would increase efficiency of disaster recovery. But the same would be achieved by converting Export SDs to Data SDs using a small CLI utility.
On 01/10/2017, 15:32, "users-bounces@ovirt.org on behalf of Maor Lipchuk" <users-bounces@ovirt.org on behalf of mlipchuk@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Nir Soffer <nsoffer@redhat.com> wrote: > > Attaching and detaching data domain was not designed for backing up vms. > How would you use it for backup? > > How do you ensure that a backup clone of a vm is not started by mistake, > changing the backup contents?
That is a good question. We recently introduced a new feature called "backup storage domain" which you can mark the storage domain as backup storage domain. That can guarantee that no VMs will run with disks/leases reside on the storage domain. The feature should already exist in oVirt 4.2 (despite a bug that should be handled with this patch https://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/81290/) You can find more information on this here: https://github.com/shubham0d/ovirt-site/blob/ 41dcb0f1791d90d1ae0ac43cd34a399cfedf54d8/source/develop/ release-management/features/storage/backup-storage-domain.html.md
Basically the OVF that is being saved in the export domain should be similar to the same one that is being saved in the OVF_STORE disk in the storage domain. If the user manages replication on that storage domain it can be re-used for backup purposes by importing it to a setup. Actually it is much more efficient to use a data storage domain than to use the copy operation to/from the export storage domain.
> > Nir _______________________________________________ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Hi, The backup storage domain is quite like export storage domain but with easy usability. Since you can change any data domain into backup domain any time, you not need to create a dedicated export storage domain for backup or disaster recovery purpose. Altough its working is same as export sd. The process of backup can be as simple as this: 1) turn off all the vms in your storage domain 2) select backup flag to convert that into backup domain. Once the domain is used for backup, you cannot make any changes to its vms, disk etc as mentioned by maor. And yes, you can convert export sd to data domain using cli script but it is not required anymore. If in future export storage domain get deprecated, you not need to be worry about that much since you can convert all your export sd into data domain anytime and start using backup feature instead. Regards, Shubham On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Charles Kozler <ckozleriii@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for clearing this up for me everyone. My concern that something like the export domain wasnt going to exist and it was just going to be deprecated with no alternative. Glad to hear all the news of the SD
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Pavel Gashev <Pax@acronis.com> wrote:
Maor,
Could you please clarify, what would be the process of making backup of a running VM to an existing backup storage domain?
I’m asking because it looks like the process is going to be quite the same: 1. Clone VM from a snapshot 2. Move the cloned VM to a backup storage domain
An ability of choosing destination storage for cloned VMs would increase backup efficiency. On the other hand, an ability of exporting VM from a snapshot would increase the efficiency in the same way even without creating new entity.
Indeed, Backup SDs would increase efficiency of disaster recovery. But the same would be achieved by converting Export SDs to Data SDs using a small CLI utility.
On 01/10/2017, 15:32, "users-bounces@ovirt.org on behalf of Maor Lipchuk" <users-bounces@ovirt.org on behalf of mlipchuk@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Nir Soffer <nsoffer@redhat.com> wrote: > > Attaching and detaching data domain was not designed for backing up vms. > How would you use it for backup? > > How do you ensure that a backup clone of a vm is not started by mistake, > changing the backup contents?
That is a good question. We recently introduced a new feature called "backup storage domain" which you can mark the storage domain as backup storage domain. That can guarantee that no VMs will run with disks/leases reside on the storage domain. The feature should already exist in oVirt 4.2 (despite a bug that should be handled with this patch https://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/81290/ ) You can find more information on this here: https://github.com/shubham0d/ovirt-site/blob/41dcb0f1791d90d 1ae0ac43cd34a399cfedf54d8/source/develop/release- management/features/storage/backup-storage-domain.html.md
Basically the OVF that is being saved in the export domain should be similar to the same one that is being saved in the OVF_STORE disk in the storage domain. If the user manages replication on that storage domain it can be re-used for backup purposes by importing it to a setup. Actually it is much more efficient to use a data storage domain than to use the copy operation to/from the export storage domain.
> > Nir _______________________________________________ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
_______________________________________________ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
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Yes, I just gave an example case. If you want to use vms with a backup, then you can just copy that vm or disk into another domain and make it as backup domain as you do it in export domain. In simple language, main aim of creating backup domain is just to use all the features available in export domain without creating a dedicated export domain. Hope you understand now:) On 2 Oct 2017 8:55 pm, "Pavel Gashev" <Pax@acronis.com> wrote:
Shubham,
I don’t really understand the process you described. If I need to backup the whole datacenter, you say I have to turn off all VMs, and make them non-runnable. It doesn’t look like a backing up. It looks like an archiving. But what if I need to keep my VMs running?
*From: *shubham dubey <sdubey504@gmail.com> *Date: *Monday, 2 October 2017 at 15:55 *To: *Charles Kozler <ckozleriii@gmail.com> *Cc: *Pavel Gashev <Pax@acronis.com>, users <users@ovirt.org>, Maor Lipchuk <mlipchuk@redhat.com> *Subject: *Re: [ovirt-users] deprecating export domain?
Hi,
The backup storage domain is quite like export storage domain but with easy usability.
Since you can change any data domain into backup domain any time, you not need to create a dedicated
export storage domain for backup or disaster recovery purpose. Altough its working is same as export sd.
The process of backup can be as simple as this:
1) turn off all the vms in your storage domain
2) select backup flag to convert that into backup domain.
Once the domain is used for backup, you cannot make any changes to its vms, disk etc as mentioned by maor.
And yes, you can convert export sd to data domain using cli script but it is not required anymore.
If in future export storage domain get deprecated, you not need to be worry about that much since you can convert all your
export sd into data domain anytime and start using backup feature instead.
Regards,
Shubham
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Charles Kozler <ckozleriii@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for clearing this up for me everyone. My concern that something like the export domain wasnt going to exist and it was just going to be deprecated with no alternative. Glad to hear all the news of the SD
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Pavel Gashev <Pax@acronis.com> wrote:
Maor,
Could you please clarify, what would be the process of making backup of a running VM to an existing backup storage domain?
I’m asking because it looks like the process is going to be quite the same: 1. Clone VM from a snapshot 2. Move the cloned VM to a backup storage domain
An ability of choosing destination storage for cloned VMs would increase backup efficiency. On the other hand, an ability of exporting VM from a snapshot would increase the efficiency in the same way even without creating new entity.
Indeed, Backup SDs would increase efficiency of disaster recovery. But the same would be achieved by converting Export SDs to Data SDs using a small CLI utility.
On 01/10/2017, 15:32, "users-bounces@ovirt.org on behalf of Maor Lipchuk" <users-bounces@ovirt.org on behalf of mlipchuk@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Nir Soffer <nsoffer@redhat.com> wrote: > > Attaching and detaching data domain was not designed for backing up vms. > How would you use it for backup? > > How do you ensure that a backup clone of a vm is not started by mistake, > changing the backup contents?
That is a good question. We recently introduced a new feature called "backup storage domain" which you can mark the storage domain as backup storage domain. That can guarantee that no VMs will run with disks/leases reside on the storage domain. The feature should already exist in oVirt 4.2 (despite a bug that should be handled with this patch https://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/81290/) You can find more information on this here: https://github.com/shubham0d/ovirt-site/blob/ 41dcb0f1791d90d1ae0ac43cd34a399cfedf54d8/source/develop/ release-management/features/storage/backup-storage-domain.html.md
Basically the OVF that is being saved in the export domain should be similar to the same one that is being saved in the OVF_STORE disk in the storage domain. If the user manages replication on that storage domain it can be re-used for backup purposes by importing it to a setup. Actually it is much more efficient to use a data storage domain than to use the copy operation to/from the export storage domain.
> > Nir
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Please open RFE requests for your suggestions. thanks, YANIV LAVI SENIOR TECHNICAL PRODUCT MANAGER Red Hat Israel Ltd. <https://www.redhat.com/> 34 Jerusalem Road, Building A, 1st floor Ra'anana, Israel 4350109 ylavi@redhat.com T: +972-9-7692306/8272306 F: +972-9-7692223 IM: ylavi <https://red.ht/sig> TRIED. TESTED. TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted> @redhatnews <https://twitter.com/redhatnews> Red Hat <https://www.linkedin.com/company/red-hat> Red Hat <https://www.facebook.com/RedHatInc> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 6:38 PM, Pavel Gashev <Pax@acronis.com> wrote:
Shubham,
I hope you’re going to keep the Export feature at least as “Clone to another storage domain”. In the real life, the copy-in/copy-out is required for backups. Moving disks between Data SD and Backup SD is not a way to backup or restore. It’s often required to keep VM runnable during backing up, and it’s often required to keep a backup during restoring. Typical backup storage is not designed for running VMs directly. SSDs are not cheap enough for storing backups, and there are HDDs especially designed for storing cold data [1]. Thus, the disaster recovery scenario is a great feature, but it can’t be a recommended way to recover.
And I hope you are going to show VMs on backup storages in a separate list (“Backups” instead of “Virtual Machines”).
[1] http://www.seagate.com/enterprise-storage/hard-disk- drives/archive-hdd/
I hope this helps.
*From: *shubham dubey <sdubey504@gmail.com> *Date: *Monday, 2 October 2017 at 19:10 *To: *Pavel Gashev <Pax@acronis.com> *Cc: *Maor Lipchuk <mlipchuk@redhat.com>, "users@ovirt.org" < users@ovirt.org>
*Subject: *Re: [ovirt-users] deprecating export domain?
Yes, I just gave an example case. If you want to use vms with a backup, then you can just copy that vm or disk into another domain and make it as backup domain as you do it in export domain.
In simple language, main aim of creating backup domain is just to use all the features available in export domain without creating a dedicated export domain.
Hope you understand now:)
On 2 Oct 2017 8:55 pm, "Pavel Gashev" <Pax@acronis.com> wrote:
Shubham,
I don’t really understand the process you described. If I need to backup the whole datacenter, you say I have to turn off all VMs, and make them non-runnable. It doesn’t look like a backing up. It looks like an archiving. But what if I need to keep my VMs running?
*From: *shubham dubey <sdubey504@gmail.com> *Date: *Monday, 2 October 2017 at 15:55 *To: *Charles Kozler <ckozleriii@gmail.com> *Cc: *Pavel Gashev <Pax@acronis.com>, users <users@ovirt.org>, Maor Lipchuk <mlipchuk@redhat.com> *Subject: *Re: [ovirt-users] deprecating export domain?
Hi,
The backup storage domain is quite like export storage domain but with easy usability.
Since you can change any data domain into backup domain any time, you not need to create a dedicated
export storage domain for backup or disaster recovery purpose. Altough its working is same as export sd.
The process of backup can be as simple as this:
1) turn off all the vms in your storage domain
2) select backup flag to convert that into backup domain.
Once the domain is used for backup, you cannot make any changes to its vms, disk etc as mentioned by maor.
And yes, you can convert export sd to data domain using cli script but it is not required anymore.
If in future export storage domain get deprecated, you not need to be worry about that much since you can convert all your
export sd into data domain anytime and start using backup feature instead.
Regards,
Shubham
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Charles Kozler <ckozleriii@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for clearing this up for me everyone. My concern that something like the export domain wasnt going to exist and it was just going to be deprecated with no alternative. Glad to hear all the news of the SD
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Pavel Gashev <Pax@acronis.com> wrote:
Maor,
Could you please clarify, what would be the process of making backup of a running VM to an existing backup storage domain?
I’m asking because it looks like the process is going to be quite the same: 1. Clone VM from a snapshot 2. Move the cloned VM to a backup storage domain
An ability of choosing destination storage for cloned VMs would increase backup efficiency. On the other hand, an ability of exporting VM from a snapshot would increase the efficiency in the same way even without creating new entity.
Indeed, Backup SDs would increase efficiency of disaster recovery. But the same would be achieved by converting Export SDs to Data SDs using a small CLI utility.
On 01/10/2017, 15:32, "users-bounces@ovirt.org on behalf of Maor Lipchuk" <users-bounces@ovirt.org on behalf of mlipchuk@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Nir Soffer <nsoffer@redhat.com> wrote: > > Attaching and detaching data domain was not designed for backing up vms. > How would you use it for backup? > > How do you ensure that a backup clone of a vm is not started by mistake, > changing the backup contents?
That is a good question. We recently introduced a new feature called "backup storage domain" which you can mark the storage domain as backup storage domain. That can guarantee that no VMs will run with disks/leases reside on the storage domain. The feature should already exist in oVirt 4.2 (despite a bug that should be handled with this patch https://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/81290/) You can find more information on this here: https://github.com/shubham0d/ovirt-site/blob/ 41dcb0f1791d90d1ae0ac43cd34a399cfedf54d8/source/develop/ release-management/features/storage/backup-storage-domain.html.md
Basically the OVF that is being saved in the export domain should be similar to the same one that is being saved in the OVF_STORE disk in the storage domain. If the user manages replication on that storage domain it can be re-used for backup purposes by importing it to a setup. Actually it is much more efficient to use a data storage domain than to use the copy operation to/from the export storage domain.
> > Nir
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While I am trying to prepare a migration from 4.3 to 4.4 with the base OS switch, I am exploring all variants of moving VMs. OVA export/import and export domains have issues and failures so now I am trying backup domains and fail to understand how they are to be used and the sparse documentation does not help. It says: 1. create a clone VM 2. move the cloned VM's disks to the backup domain and then moves on to the next topic What I find missing: 1. How do I move the cloned VM (basically whatever configuration data is not inside the disk) away from the active domain? 2. Can I just delete it, because 'magically' the OVF store on the backup domain will contain all VM data for any VM that has disk images there? 3. A matching reovery/restore procdure: Is it really just as simple as moving the disk back (with the OVF/XML definition silently following)? In terms of usability I'd really love a clone where I can specify the storage domain target...
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 3:32 PM Maor Lipchuk <mlipchuk@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 9:58 AM Yaniv Kaul <ykaul@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 8:41 PM, Charles Kozler <ckozleriii@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
I recently read on this list from a redhat member that export domain is either being deprecated or looking at being deprecated
We want to deprecate the export domain, but it is not deprecated yet.
To that end, can you share details? Can you share any
notes/postings/bz's
that document this? I would imagine something like this would be discussed in larger audience
I agree.
This seems like a somewhat significant change to make and I am curious where this is scheduled? Currently, a lot of my backups rely
explicitly on
an export domain for online snapshots, so I'd like to plan accordingly
Can you describe how you backup your vms using export domain? What do you mean by online snapshots?
We believe that the ability to detach and attach a data domain provides equivalent and even superior functionality to the export domain. Is
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Nir Soffer <nsoffer@redhat.com> wrote: there
anything you'd miss? I don't believe it would be a significant change.
Attaching and detaching data domain was not designed for backing up vms. How would you use it for backup?
How do you ensure that a backup clone of a vm is not started by mistake, changing the backup contents?
That is a good question. We recently introduced a new feature called "backup storage domain" which you can mark the storage domain as backup storage domain. That can guarantee that no VMs will run with disks/leases reside on the storage domain.
How older systems will handle the backup domain, when they do not know about backup domains?
The feature should already exist in oVirt 4.2 (despite a bug that should be handled with this patch https://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/81290/) You can find more information on this here:
https://github.com/shubham0d/ovirt-site/blob/41dcb0f1791d90d1ae0ac43cd34a399...
Basically the OVF that is being saved in the export domain should be similar to the same one that is being saved in the OVF_STORE disk in the storage domain.
There is no guarantee that the OVF_STORE will contain the vm xml after the domain is detached.
If the user manages replication on that storage domain it can be re-used for backup purposes by importing it to a setup. Actually it is much more efficient to use a data storage domain than to use the copy operation to/from the export storage domain.
For backup you have to do: 1. take snapshot 2. attach the backup domain to the system 3. clone the vm to the backup domain 4. manually force update the OVF_STORE For restore you have to do: 1. attach the backup domain to the system 2. clone the vm from the backup domain to the data domain How backup domain is more efficient?
Nir
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 7:13 PM, Nir Soffer <nsoffer@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 3:32 PM Maor Lipchuk <mlipchuk@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 9:58 AM Yaniv Kaul <ykaul@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 8:41 PM, Charles Kozler <ckozleriii@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
I recently read on this list from a redhat member that export domain
is
either being deprecated or looking at being deprecated
We want to deprecate the export domain, but it is not deprecated yet.
To that end, can you share details? Can you share any
notes/postings/bz's
that document this? I would imagine something like this would be discussed in larger audience
I agree.
This seems like a somewhat significant change to make and I am curious where this is scheduled? Currently, a lot of my backups rely
explicitly on
an export domain for online snapshots, so I'd like to plan accordingly
Can you describe how you backup your vms using export domain? What do you mean by online snapshots?
We believe that the ability to detach and attach a data domain provides equivalent and even superior functionality to the export domain. Is
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Nir Soffer <nsoffer@redhat.com> wrote: there
anything you'd miss? I don't believe it would be a significant change.
Attaching and detaching data domain was not designed for backing up vms. How would you use it for backup?
How do you ensure that a backup clone of a vm is not started by mistake, changing the backup contents?
That is a good question. We recently introduced a new feature called "backup storage domain" which you can mark the storage domain as backup storage domain. That can guarantee that no VMs will run with disks/leases reside on the storage domain.
How older systems will handle the backup domain, when they do not know about backup domains?
The feature should already exist in oVirt 4.2 (despite a bug that should be handled with this patch https://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/81290/) You can find more information on this here: https://github.com/shubham0d/ovirt-site/blob/ 41dcb0f1791d90d1ae0ac43cd34a399cfedf54d8/source/develop/ release-management/features/storage/backup-storage-domain.html.md
Basically the OVF that is being saved in the export domain should be similar to the same one that is being saved in the OVF_STORE disk in the storage domain.
There is no guarantee that the OVF_STORE will contain the vm xml after the domain is detached.
I believe we need to ensure that before detach, OVF store update succeeds and fail to detach otherwise. We may wish to have a 'force detach' to detach even if OVF store update fails for some reason. Y.
If the user manages replication on that storage domain it can be re-used for backup purposes by importing it to a setup. Actually it is much more efficient to use a data storage domain than to use the copy operation to/from the export storage domain.
For backup you have to do:
1. take snapshot 2. attach the backup domain to the system 3. clone the vm to the backup domain 4. manually force update the OVF_STORE
For restore you have to do:
1. attach the backup domain to the system 2. clone the vm from the backup domain to the data domain
How backup domain is more efficient?
Nir
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Yaniv Kaul <ykaul@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 7:13 PM, Nir Soffer <nsoffer@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 3:32 PM Maor Lipchuk <mlipchuk@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Nir Soffer <nsoffer@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 9:58 AM Yaniv Kaul <ykaul@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 8:41 PM, Charles Kozler <ckozleriii@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
I recently read on this list from a redhat member that export domain is either being deprecated or looking at being deprecated
We want to deprecate the export domain, but it is not deprecated yet.
To that end, can you share details? Can you share any notes/postings/bz's that document this? I would imagine something like this would be discussed in larger audience
I agree.
This seems like a somewhat significant change to make and I am curious where this is scheduled? Currently, a lot of my backups rely explicitly on an export domain for online snapshots, so I'd like to plan accordingly
Can you describe how you backup your vms using export domain? What do you mean by online snapshots?
We believe that the ability to detach and attach a data domain provides equivalent and even superior functionality to the export domain. Is there anything you'd miss? I don't believe it would be a significant change.
Attaching and detaching data domain was not designed for backing up vms. How would you use it for backup?
How do you ensure that a backup clone of a vm is not started by mistake, changing the backup contents?
That is a good question. We recently introduced a new feature called "backup storage domain" which you can mark the storage domain as backup storage domain. That can guarantee that no VMs will run with disks/leases reside on the storage domain.
How older systems will handle the backup domain, when they do not know about backup domains?
What do you mean? backup storage domain is a DB configuration used in the engine, it does not depend on VDSM or has any indication of backup in its metadata.
The feature should already exist in oVirt 4.2 (despite a bug that should be handled with this patch https://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/81290/) You can find more information on this here:
https://github.com/shubham0d/ovirt-site/blob/41dcb0f1791d90d1ae0ac43cd34a399...
Basically the OVF that is being saved in the export domain should be similar to the same one that is being saved in the OVF_STORE disk in the storage domain.
There is no guarantee that the OVF_STORE will contain the vm xml after the domain is detached.
I believe we need to ensure that before detach, OVF store update succeeds and fail to detach otherwise. We may wish to have a 'force detach' to detach even if OVF store update fails for some reason. Y.
Why detach and not when moving the storage domain to maintenance? We do have this mechanism today when moving a storage domain to maintenance although IINM the operation does not fail if the OVF update fails, but that can be easily fixed.
If the user manages replication on that storage domain it can be re-used for backup purposes by importing it to a setup. Actually it is much more efficient to use a data storage domain than to use the copy operation to/from the export storage domain.
For backup you have to do:
1. take snapshot 2. attach the backup domain to the system 3. clone the vm to the backup domain 4. manually force update the OVF_STORE
For restore you have to do:
1. attach the backup domain to the system 2. clone the vm from the backup domain to the data domain
How backup domain is more efficient?
The scenario you described it is the same as using the export storage domain, but using backup storage domain is more flexible and easier to use than the export storage domain. Another scenario might be that the user will decide that a storage domain should be backed up, and instead of using copy and clone operations as you mentioned, the user can set the storage domain as backup, replicate the storage domain, and once the copy of the storage domain is finished the user can change the storage domain back to regular data storage domain. That way there is no need to maintain any clone and copy operations.
Nir
On Oct 15, 2017 11:39 PM, "Maor Lipchuk" <mlipchuk@redhat.com> wrote: On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Yaniv Kaul <ykaul@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 7:13 PM, Nir Soffer <nsoffer@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 3:32 PM Maor Lipchuk <mlipchuk@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Nir Soffer <nsoffer@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 9:58 AM Yaniv Kaul <ykaul@redhat.com> wrote:
On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 8:41 PM, Charles Kozler <ckozleriii@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello,
I recently read on this list from a redhat member that export domain is either being deprecated or looking at being deprecated
We want to deprecate the export domain, but it is not deprecated yet.
To that end, can you share details? Can you share any notes/postings/bz's that document this? I would imagine something like this would be discussed in larger audience
I agree.
This seems like a somewhat significant change to make and I am curious where this is scheduled? Currently, a lot of my backups rely explicitly on an export domain for online snapshots, so I'd like to plan accordingly
Can you describe how you backup your vms using export domain? What do you mean by online snapshots?
We believe that the ability to detach and attach a data domain provides equivalent and even superior functionality to the export domain. Is there anything you'd miss? I don't believe it would be a significant
change.
Attaching and detaching data domain was not designed for backing up vms. How would you use it for backup?
How do you ensure that a backup clone of a vm is not started by mistake, changing the backup contents?
That is a good question. We recently introduced a new feature called "backup storage domain" which you can mark the storage domain as backup storage domain. That can guarantee that no VMs will run with disks/leases reside on the storage domain.
How older systems will handle the backup domain, when they do not know about backup domains?
What do you mean? backup storage domain is a DB configuration used in the engine, it does not depend on VDSM or has any indication of backup in its metadata.
The feature should already exist in oVirt 4.2 (despite a bug that should be handled with this patch https://gerrit.ovirt.org/#/c/81290/) You can find more information on this here:
41dcb0f1791d90d1ae0ac43cd34a399cfedf54d8/source/develop/ release-management/features/storage/backup-storage-domain.html.md
Basically the OVF that is being saved in the export domain should be similar to the same one that is being saved in the OVF_STORE disk in the storage domain.
There is no guarantee that the OVF_STORE will contain the vm xml after the domain is detached.
I believe we need to ensure that before detach, OVF store update succeeds and fail to detach otherwise. We may wish to have a 'force detach' to detach even if OVF store update fails for some reason. Y.
Why detach and not when moving the storage domain to maintenance? Correct. We do have this mechanism today when moving a storage domain to maintenance although IINM the operation does not fail if the OVF update fails, but that can be easily fixed. Indeed. Y.
If the user manages replication on that storage domain it can be re-used for backup purposes by importing it to a setup. Actually it is much more efficient to use a data storage domain than to use the copy operation to/from the export storage domain.
For backup you have to do:
1. take snapshot 2. attach the backup domain to the system 3. clone the vm to the backup domain 4. manually force update the OVF_STORE
For restore you have to do:
1. attach the backup domain to the system 2. clone the vm from the backup domain to the data domain
How backup domain is more efficient?
The scenario you described it is the same as using the export storage domain, but using backup storage domain is more flexible and easier to use than the export storage domain. Another scenario might be that the user will decide that a storage domain should be backed up, and instead of using copy and clone operations as you mentioned, the user can set the storage domain as backup, replicate the storage domain, and once the copy of the storage domain is finished the user can change the storage domain back to regular data storage domain. That way there is no need to maintain any clone and copy operations.
Nir
Maybe I overlooked the information, but in recent RHVE 4.3 docs the information how to use the export storage domain have been removed and there is no alternative to do so, but to detach a data domain and attach it somewhere else. But how can I move my VMs one by one to a new storage domain on a different datacenter without completely detaching the original storage domain? I don't want to bring down all of my VMs on the old storage domain for import. I want to export and import them one by one. When all VMs are moved to the new data center only then I want to decommission the old data center. What is the rationale to deprecate the export storage and already remove documentation when there seems to be no alternative available?
On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 2:51 PM Andreas Elvers <andreas.elvers+ovirtforum@solutions.work> wrote:
Maybe I overlooked the information, but in recent RHVE 4.3 docs the information how to use the export storage domain have been removed and there is no alternative to do so, but to detach a data domain and attach it somewhere else. But how can I move my VMs one by one to a new storage domain on a different datacenter without completely detaching the original storage domain?
Create a new data domain for the vm transfer, move the vm you want to migrate to it here. Stop VMs, detach storage domain, attach to new cluster/datacenter, import vms, move them away from this storage domain. Once done that you're free to reuse this data domain for moving other vms. Luca -- "E' assurdo impiegare gli uomini di intelligenza eccellente per fare calcoli che potrebbero essere affidati a chiunque se si usassero delle macchine" Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibnitz, Filosofo e Matematico (1646-1716) "Internet è la più grande biblioteca del mondo. Ma il problema è che i libri sono tutti sparsi sul pavimento" John Allen Paulos, Matematico (1945-vivente) Luca 'remix_tj' Lorenzetto, http://www.remixtj.net , <lorenzetto.luca@gmail.com>
Hi, "Andreas Elvers" <andreas.elvers+ovirtforum@solutions.work> writes:
Maybe I overlooked the information, but in recent RHVE 4.3 docs the information how to use the export storage domain have been removed and there is no alternative to do so, but to detach a data domain and attach it somewhere else. But how can I move my VMs one by one to a new storage domain on a different datacenter without completely detaching the original storage domain?
I was under the impression that you just needed a regular (second) data domain in lieu of the (deprecated) export domain. So you attach a new data domain, then migrate the VM over to it, then you can detach the data domain and attach it to another datacenter.
I don't want to bring down all of my VMs on the old storage domain for import. I want to export and import them one by one. When all VMs are moved to the new data center only then I want to decommission the old data center.
What is the rationale to deprecate the export storage and already remove documentation when there seems to be no alternative available?
IANAD, but I believe the rationale was that there was no need for a "special case" domain. -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant
On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:52 PM Andreas Elvers < andreas.elvers+ovirtforum@solutions.work> wrote:
Maybe I overlooked the information, but in recent RHVE 4.3 docs the information how to use the export storage domain have been removed and there is no alternative to do so, but to detach a data domain and attach it somewhere else. But how can I move my VMs one by one to a new storage domain on a different datacenter without completely detaching the original storage domain?
It not clear what do you mean by different datacenter. The best way to decommission a storage domain is to move the disks to another domain in the same DC. You can do this while the VM is running, without any downtime. When you are done, you can detach and remove the old storage domain. If you want to move the VM to a different storage domain on another oVirt DC, move the domain to the same DC until you finish the migration, and then move the domain back to another DC and import the VM. If you want to use the same domain for exporting and importing, you will need to move the VM to another domain on the target DC. If you want to move the VM to another oVirt setup, you can attach a temporary storage domain, move the disk to that storage domain, detach the domain, attach it to the other setup, and import the VM. If you can replicate the storage using your storage server (e.g, take a snapshot of a LUN), you can attach the new LUN to the new setup and import the VMs. (this is how oVirt DR works) If you don't have shared storage between the two setups, maybe different physical datacenters, you can: - export OVA, and import it on the other setup - download the vm disks, upload them to the other setup and recreated the vm To minimize downtime while importing and exporting a VM using attach/detach storage domain: On the source setup: 1. Attach the temporary storage domain used for moving vms 2. While the VM is running, move the disks to the temporary storage domain 3. Stop the VM 4. Detach the temporary storage domain On the destination setup: 5. Attach the temporary storage domain to other setup 6. Import the VM 7. Start the VM 8. While the VM is running, move the disks to the target storage domain Steps 3-7 should take only 2-3 minutes, and do no data operations. Exporting and importing big VMs using export domain can take many minutes or hours. This can be automated using oVirt REST API, SDK, or Ansible. I don't want to bring down all of my VMs on the old storage domain for
import. I want to export and import them one by one. When all VMs are moved to the new data center only then I want to decommission the old data center.
What is the rationale to deprecate the export storage and already remove documentation when there seems to be no alternative available?
There are many alternatives for several versions, listed above. The main alternative is attach/detach storage domain. This method has many advantages like: - If you can keep the VMs on the same storage, requires no data copies, minimizing total time to move the VMs around. - If you cannot keep the VMs on same storage, requires up to 2 data copies, like export domain - But unlike export domain, you can do the copies in the background while the VM is running (see my example above). - Does not require NFS storage on your high end iSCSI/FC setup - Since you can use block storage, more reliable and perform better due of multipath - Since we use regular data domain, easier to maintain and less likely to break - Works with any recent storage format (V3, V4, V5), while export domain requires V1. Assuming that all future version of a product will support all storage formats was never a good idea. We are playing with a new way to move VM with minimal downtime, using a the concept of "external disk". With this you will be able to run a tool that will shutdown the VM on one setup, and start it in seconds on the other setup. While the VM is running, it will migrate the disks from the old storage to new storage. This method does not require shared storage to be available to both setups, only that we can expose the source disks over the network, for example using NBD. There is a proof of concept here: https://gerrit.ovirt.org/c/98926/ Nir
participants (11)
-
Andreas Elvers -
Charles Kozler -
Derek Atkins -
Luca 'remix_tj' Lorenzetto -
Maor Lipchuk -
Nir Soffer -
Pavel Gashev -
shubham dubey -
thomas＠hoberg.net -
Yaniv Kaul -
Yaniv Lavi (Dary)