CentOS Stream is unstable at best. I’ve used it recently and it was just a mess. There’s no binary compatibility with the current point release and there’s no version pinning. So it will be really difficult to keep track of things. I’m really curious how oVirt will handle this. From: Wesley Stewart <wstewart3(a)gmail.com&gt; Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 4:56 PM To: Strahil Nikolov <hunter86_bg(a)yahoo.com&gt; Cc: users <users(a)ovirt.org&gt; Subject: [ovirt-users] Re: CentOS 8 is dead This is a little concerning. But it seems pretty easy to convert: https://www.centos.org/centos-stream/ However I would be curious to see if someone tests this with having an active ovirt node! On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 2:39 PM Strahil Nikolov via Users <users@ovirt.org<mailto:users@ovirt.org>> wrote: Hello All, I'm really worried about the following news: https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/ Did anyone tried to port oVirt to SLES/openSUSE or any Debian-based distro ? Best Regards, Strahil Nikolov _______________________________________________ Users mailing list -- users@ovirt.org<mailto:users@ovirt.org> To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@ovirt.org<mailto:users-leave@ovirt.org> Privacy Statement: https://www.ovirt.org/privacy-policy.html oVirt Code of Conduct: https://www.ovirt.org/community/about/community-guidelines/ List Archives: https://lists.ovirt.org/archives/list/users@ovirt.org/message/HZC4D4OSYL6...

On 2020-12-08 14:37, Strahil Nikolov via Users wrote: I fail to see a major issue honestly. If current RHEL is 8.3, CentOS Stream is essentially the RC for 8.4... oVirt in and of itself is also an upstream project, targeting upstream in advance is likely beneficial for all parties involved. CentOS has been lagging behind RHEL quite a lot, creating it's own set of issues. Being ahead of the curve is more beneficial than detrimental IMO. The RHEL sources are still being published to the CentOS git, oVirt node could be built against that, time will tell. Supported or not, i bet someone forks it anyways.

This was one of my fears regarding the IBM acquisition.  I guess we can't complain too much, it's not like anybody *pays* for CentOS.  :) On 12/8/2020 3:14 PM, Strahil Nikolov via Users wrote: > Yeah, > the main problem is that Stream won't be as stable as RHEL (which also > has tons of bugs) and you will have to fight with bugs in the OS as if > I'm running a Fedota and on top of that - we have to be extra careful > for oVirt. > Also the Stream is quite new and we can't say if it will be as CentOS > was in the past. > > Best Regards, > Strahil Nikolov > > В 14:56 -0500 на 08.12.2020 (вт), Alex McWhirter написа: >> On 2020-12-08 14:37, Strahil Nikolov via Users wrote: >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I'm really worried about the following news: >>> https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/ >>> >>> Did anyone tried to port oVirt to SLES/openSUSE or any Debian-based >>> distro ? >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Strahil Nikolov >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Users mailing list -- users(a)ovirt.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)ovirt.org >>> Privacy Statement: https://www.ovirt.org/privacy-policy.html >>> oVirt Code of Conduct: >>> https://www.ovirt.org/community/about/community-guidelines/ >>> List Archives: >>> https://lists.ovirt.org/archives/list/users@ovirt.org/message/HZC4D4OSYL6... >> I fail to see a major issue honestly. If current RHEL is 8.3, CentOS >> Stream is essentially the RC for 8.4... oVirt in and of itself is >> also >> an upstream project, targeting upstream in advance is likely >> beneficial >> for all parties involved. >> >> CentOS has been lagging behind RHEL quite a lot, creating it's own >> set >> of issues. Being ahead of the curve is more beneficial than >> detrimental >> IMO. The RHEL sources are still being published to the CentOS git, >> oVirt >> node could be built against that, time will tell. >> >> Supported or not, i bet someone forks it anyways. >> _______________________________________________ >> Users mailing list -- users(a)ovirt.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)ovirt.org >> Privacy Statement: https://www.ovirt.org/privacy-policy.html >> oVirt Code of Conduct: >> https://www.ovirt.org/community/about/community-guidelines/ >> List Archives: >> https://lists.ovirt.org/archives/list/users@ovirt.org/message/SM3JM6DHDCR... > _______________________________________________ > Users mailing list -- users(a)ovirt.org > To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)ovirt.org > Privacy Statement: https://www.ovirt.org/privacy-policy.html > oVirt Code of Conduct: https://www.ovirt.org/community/about/community-guidelines/ > List Archives: https://lists.ovirt.org/archives/list/users@ovirt.org/message/535INKZGF22...

On Tue, December 8, 2020 3:49 pm, Christopher Cox wrote: So... stupid question, but... What would it take for a group of interested individuals to "take over" the current CentOS-as-RHEL-rebuild processes currently in place? I honestly have no idea how much person-hour effort it it is to maintain CentOS, or what other resources (build machines / infrastructure) are required? -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek(a)ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant

Actually, you are not the only one thinking about it. You can check a lot of users (including me) are joining the following slack channel: https://app.slack.com/client/T0YKGK200/D01H5BZ85LG Best Regards, Strahil Nikolov В 16:01 -0500 на 08.12.2020 (вт), Derek Atkins написа:

IBM is destroying Red hat. Sad. 在 2020/12/9 6:05, Derek Atkins 写道:

On 12/8/2020 12:20 PM, Michael Watters wrote: yes, but "we" do provide feedback and bug reports from a LOT of different environments which directly helps RHEL. That is not an insignificant benefit to IBM. I'm sure IBM will pick up a few paid RHEL licenses with this move, but I'm not sure the amount will be material enough to show up on the income statement. Experienced admins can easily adapt to Debian/Ubuntu/Suse etc. In contrast, they lose the projects who started off with CentOS but switched to RHEL paid support when they had special needs or the production environment dictated that they have a 'real' license with Support. We have a few customers who did precisely that.

Right now we’re happy that CentOS 8.3 is finally here. That aligns 4.4.3 and 4.4.4 again, makes the 4.5 cluster level usable, tons of bug fixes. Afterwards…well, I think Stream is not a bad option, we already have it in some form. I suppose it’s going to be the most feasible option. For anything else *someone* would need to do all the work. And I don’t mean it in a way that we - all the people with @redhat.com address - are forbidden to do that or something, it’s really about the sheer amount of work and dedication required, doubling the integration efforts. oVirt is (maybe surprisingly) complex and testing it on any new platform means a lot of extra manpower.

It looks like a few forks are popping up already. A new project called RockyLinux and now CloudLinux announced an RHEL fork today which sounds promising: https://blog.cloudlinux.com/announcing-open-sourced-community-driven-rhel... On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 5:42 AM Jorick Astrego <jorick(a)netbulae.eu&gt; wrote:

On 2020-12-10 15:02, thomas(a)hoberg.net wrote: oVirt has more or less always been RHEV upstream, while not necessarily beta, people using oVirt over RHEV have been subject to the occasional broken feature or two, at least at early release. If you need the stability and support, RHEV is the answer. However, we use oVirt and CentOS 8 in production on a fairly large scale and it's not an unreasonable amount of work to keep running. It's certainly not a set it and forget it scenario, but it works very well for us. There are also a ton of moving parts to running oVirt at scale. hardware, firmware, network configuration, software, etc... all play major roles and it's important to test those things individually and together. We also do a lot of unsupported things, like use custom SPICE builds for h264 encoding and ZFS backing Gluster. These are things that would make no sense to do with RHEV/L as it would invalidate any support we pay for. I personally do think oVirt delivers on the "a free open-source virtualization solution for your entire enterprise" stigma, but it is not a simple drop in and deploy solution. Every aspect of the entire stack needs planned and verified. That takes time and expertise, and a whole lot of testing. Im happy with oVirt, and i think CentOS Stream has the potential to be a net positive by allowing oVirt to target future RHEL, but a lot of that is still up in the air. Time will tell.

Hi Thomas, actually your expectations are a little bit high. Why I'm saying this ? oVirt is the upstream of RedHat's and Oracle's paid solutions. As such , it's much more dynamic and we are a kind of testers of it. So, oVirt to RHV is like Fedora (and not CentOS) to RHEL. Actually , you are looking for RHV fork (as CentOS is such) and not for oVirt. In order to negate those stuff, you need to: - Use patch management. You can't install packages{A,B,C} on your test environment and then install packages{D,E,F} on prod and pretend that everything is fine. - Learn a little bit about oVirt & Gluster. Both softwares require some prior knowledge or you will have headaches. Gluster is simple to setup , but it's complex and not free of bugs (just like every upstream project).And of course, it is the upstream of RHGS - so you are in the same boat with oVirt. If you really need stability , then you have the choice to evaluate RHEL + RHV + Gluster and I can assure you it is more stable than the current setup. I should admit that I got 2 cases where Gluster caused me headaches , but that's 2 issues for 2 years and compared to the multimillion Storages that we got (and failed 3 times till the vendor fixed the firmware) - is far less than expected. My Lab is currently frozen to 4.3.10 and the only headaches are my old hardware. Of course , if you feel much more confident with OpenVZ than oVirt, I think that it's quite natural to prefer it. On the positive side, the community of oVirt is quite active and willing to assist (including RedHat engineers) and I have not seen a single issue not solved. Best Regards, Strahil Nikolov В четвъртък, 10 декември 2020 г., 22:03:45 Гринуич+2, thomas(a)hoberg.net <thomas(a)hoberg.net&gt; написа: I came to oVirt thinking that it was like CentOS: There might be bugs, but given the mainline usage in home and coporate labs with light workloads and nothing special, chances to hit one should be pretty minor: I like looking for new fronteers atop of my OS, not inside. I have been runing CentOS/OpenVZ for years in a previous job, mission critical 24x7 stuff where minutes of outage meant being grilled for hours in meetings afterwards. And with PCI-DSS compliance certified. Never had an issue with OpenVZ/CentOS, all those minute goofs where human error or Oracle inventing execution plans. Boy was I wrong about oVirt! Just setting it up took weeks. Ansible loves eating Gigahertz and I was running on Atoms. I had to learn how to switch from an i7 in mid-installation to have it finish at all. I the end I had learned tons of new things, but all I wanted was a cluster that would work as much out of the box as CentOS or OpenVZ. Something as fundamental as exporting and importing a VM might simply not work and not even get fixed. Migrating HCI from CentOS7/oVirt 4.3 to CentOS8/oVirt 4.4 is anything but smooth, a complete rebuild seems the lesser evil: Now if only exports and imports worked reliably! Rebooting a HCI nodes seems to involve an "I am dying!" aria on the network, where the whole switch becomes unresponsive for 10 minutes and the fault tolerant cluster on it being 100% unresponsive (including all other machines on that switch). I has so much fun resynching gluster file systems and searching through all those log files for signs as to what was going on! And the instructions on how to fix gluster issues seems so wonderfully detailed and vague, it seems one could spend days trying to fix things or rebuild and restore. It doesn't help that the fate of Gluster very much seems to hang in the air, when the scalable HCI aspect was the only reason I ever wanted oVirt. Could just be an issue with RealTek adapters, because I never oberved something like that with Intel NICs or on (recycled old) enterprise hardware I guess official support for a 3 node HCI cluster on passive Atoms isn't going to happen, unless I make happen 100% myself: It's open source after all! Just think what 3/6/9 node HCI based on Raspberry PI would do for the project! The 9 node HCI should deliver better 10Gbit GlusterFS performance than most QNAP units at the same cost with a single 10Gbit interface even with 7:2 erasure coding! I really think the future of oVirt may be at the edge, not in the datacenter core. In short: oVirt is very much beta software and quite simply a full-time job if you depend on it working over time. I can't see that getting any better when one beta gets to run on top of another beta. At the moment my oVirt experience has me doubt RHV on RHEL would work any better, even if it's cheaper than VMware. OpenVZ was simply the far better alternative than KVM for most of the things I needed from virtualization and it was mainly the hastle of trying to make that work with RHEL which had me switching to CentOS. CentOS with OpenVZ was the bedrock of that business for 15 years and proved to me that Redhat was hell-bent on making bad decisions on technological direction. I would have actually liked to pay a license for each of the physical hosts we used, but it turned out much less of a bother to forget about negotiating licensing conditions for OpenVZ containers and use CentOS instead. BTW: I am going into a meeting tomorrow, where after two years of pilot usage, we might just decide to kill our current oVirt farms, because they didn't deliver on "a free open-source virtualization solution for your entire enterprise". I'll keep my Atoms running a little longer, mostly because I have nothing else to use them for. For a first time in months, they show zero gluster replication errors, perhaps because for lack of updates there have been no node reboots. CentOS 7 is stable, but oVirt 4.3 out of support. _______________________________________________ Users mailing list -- users(a)ovirt.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)ovirt.org Privacy Statement: https://www.ovirt.org/privacy-policy.html oVirt Code of Conduct: https://www.ovirt.org/community/about/community-guidelines/ List Archives: https://lists.ovirt.org/archives/list/users@ovirt.org/message/GBZ46VXFZZX...

Il giorno mar 8 dic 2020 alle ore 20:39 Strahil Nikolov via Users < users(a)ovirt.org&gt; ha scritto: oVirt already defined plans about CentOS Stream one year ago: https://blogs.ovirt.org/2019/09/ovirt-and-centos-stream/ There shouldn't be any worries about CentOS Stream. Yes, we tried for Debian, Ubuntu, Gentoo, ArchLinux: https://www.ovirt.org/develop/developer-guide/porting-ovirt.html Someone tried on Suse as well: https://software.opensuse.org/package/vdsm But I would rather look at CentOS Stream as it will be the one being tested with oVirt or to alternative RHEL binary compatible rebuilds. -- Sandro Bonazzola MANAGER, SOFTWARE ENGINEERING, EMEA R&D RHV Red Hat EMEA <https://www.redhat.com/> sbonazzo(a)redhat.com <https://www.redhat.com/> *Red Hat respects your work life balance. Therefore there is no need to answer this email out of your office hours.*

В 18:22 +0000 на 25.12.2020 (пт), Diggy Mc написа: It should be ,as Oracle has their own OLVM: https://blogs.oracle.com/virtualization/announcing-oracle-linux-virtualiz... Merry Christmas ! Best Regards, Strahil Nikolov

Oracle took that college meme — just change the variables name — too seriously.

No, OLVM is free to download and free to update. Simon

В 22:32 +0100 на 25.12.2020 (пт), marcel d'heureuse написа: I admit that Oracle's reputation is not best ... but I guess if they do take such approach - we can always migrate to Springade/Rocky Linux/Lenix .. After all , OLVM is new tech for Oracle and they want more users to start using it (and later switch to paid subscription). I think that it's worth testing. @Simon, do you have any idea if there will be any issues migrating from CentOS 7 + oVirt 4.3.10 to OEL 8 + OLVM (once the 4.4 is available ) ? I saw https://blogs.oracle.com/virtualization/getting-started-with-oracle-linux... , but it's a little bit outdated and is about OLVM 4.2 + OEL 7 . Happy Hollidays! Best Regards, Strahil Nikolov

I do not expect particular issues; for OL we’re also working to the pure OL7 to OL8 upgrade process. BTW, I tested more times the moving from CentOS 7 to OL7 / oVirt to OLVM on 4.3 release. We’re now on OLVM 4.3.6+ (https://blogs.oracle.com/virtualization/announcing-oracle-linux-virtualiz... <https://blogs.oracle.com/virtualization/announcing-oracle-linux-virtualiz...>) and working on latest maintenance release (on 4.3.10+). The plan is to then work on OLVM 4.4 with OL8. Simon

based on the fact that CentOS7 is going to be maintained (and not closed in December 2021) I would not force any moving to OLVM 4.3.10 (when available)/OL7, unless you are interested on support. Our plan, for sure, is to get OLVM 4.4 GA in the 2021 and, so, at that point you could evaluate the moving. yep, the script is on GitHub (if someone is interested to also leave feedback): https://github.com/oracle/centos2ol <https://github.com/oracle/centos2ol> for oVirt we’ve dedicated channels for OL7, you’re right. This one could be for sure a valid plan. Right. Simon

Hi Florian, we’re working on our own libvirt/qemu releases for OL8 (actually available under dev channels) to then introduce OLVM 4.4. We have errata-releases and bugs fixed into that. BTW, yep we did some backport(s) and we also added one fix we pushed to oVirt 4.4 related to storage management (I do not remember now the details). You can see them on our Errata website: https://linux.oracle.com/ords/f?p=105:21::::RP:: Simon

Hi Strahil, thank you very much for the information. Now the question is, will oVirt stay 100 % compatible to RH? As I understood it, is that oVirt will be developed for CentOS Stream and will be tested against it. RH doesn't have the same application versions than CentOS Stream, because Stream is newer and a way ahead RH, so is oVirt then. I think, we will have then the same problems with oVirt and CentOS had, where RH 8.3 was already released and CentOS 8.3 not. Now it is vice versa. Stream is first and RH later. BR Florian Von: "users" <users(a)ovirt.org&gt; An: "users" <users(a)ovirt.org&gt; Gesendet: Samstag, 23. Januar 2021 14:58:44 Betreff: [ovirt-users] Re: CentOS 8 is dead For anyone interested , RH are extending the developer subscription for production use of up to 16 systems [1]. For me , it's completely enough to run my oVirt nodes on EL 8. [ https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/new-year-new-red-hat-enterprise-linux-prog... | https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/new-year-new-red-hat-enterprise-linux-prog... ] Best Regards, Strahil Nikolov _______________________________________________ Users mailing list -- users(a)ovirt.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)ovirt.org Privacy Statement: https://www.ovirt.org/privacy-policy.html oVirt Code of Conduct: https://www.ovirt.org/community/about/community-guidelines/ List Archives: https://lists.ovirt.org/archives/list/users@ovirt.org/message/S5SG7IXZYSC...

OLVM and its updates, as well as Oracle Linux (that's OL, not OEL), are available for free.

I do not have a date that can be shared actually but I would suggest you to start now with oVirt; a possible migration will be always possible if needed. Thanks Simon